Subud Vision - Discussion

Stefan Freedman - Subud at Middle East Spirituality and Peace Festival

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From sjahari, April 23, 2008. Time 3:14

Hi Stefan,

I dont think you really understand the point I am making here.

I am not trying to argue that Bapak’s explanation is ‘the truth”
What I am trying to say is that the model which Bapak presents is a model which quite accurately predicts the essential characteristics of the subud latihan. It is a complete and comprehensive explanation because it identifies what the vibration is and where it acts. It identifies why the results which we anticipate occur. Because it has these characteristics, it is a model which accurately depicts the situation it is describing, and therefore we can say that as a model, it is a good model.

Your model on the other hand really does none of these things because it doesnt provide these things. My previous note illustrates this. This is why I maintain that Bapak’s model/explanation is better than yours.

But a model is only a model. It is not necessarily the truth. I concede that we may not know the truth. There are many models that could do a good job at explaining a phenomenon.

It is true that In order to understand the meaning of the model Bapak presents we have to accept the existance of some things that are invisible and unprovable. The basic idea that there exists an original creative force is the primary one. Also the idea that there exists a partition of that inside us which we name as the soul. All these things are part of the model.

I totally agree that one can follow the latihan without necessarily knowing about or believing in this model. I agree with you and with Phillip on this point.

However Bapak anticipates you and precedes you both because he says exactly the same thing in his talks. He constantly emphasizes that he is giving these explanations only to satisfy the curiosity of our minds. And he said that it is virtually impossible to understand these things with our minds anyway. So it is all basically a waste of time.

Nevertheless. The reality remains that when people come to the latihan they are going to ask some questions and will want some answers such as
-what is the latihan?
-where does it come from?
-at what place in the human being does it have its action?
-by what mechanism does this action take place?
-what is the result of this action?
-what is the purpose of the latihan?

One set of answers to these questions can be found in Bapak’s talks. I would put it to you that your explanation does not provide an answer to any of these questions. Not a single one.

best
SJahari

From Philip Quackenbush, April 23, 2008. Time 6:4

Hi, Sjahari,

You said:

"It is true that In order to understand the meaning of the model Bapak presents we have to accept the existance of some things that are invisible and unprovable. The basic idea that there exists an original creative force is the primary one. Also the idea that there exists a partition of that inside us which we name as the soul. All these things are part of the model."

Okay, so how about if I present another model that has the possibility of not having to accept the existence of things that are invisible and unprovable. It's just a model, of course, and has no more likelihood of being valid than that of Muhammad Subuh, but is certainly simpler in terms of both mass of verbiage and complexity of theological expression, if perhaps not as subject to belief and/or faith, since it's based on observable phenomena and effects. In answer to your points below, then:

-what is the latihan?

It is an active (usually) form of what Herbert Benson, M.D., of Harvard, has called the Relaxation Response, from the book of the same name. There are many other forms of the Relaxation Response, but the "latihan" may be more suitable for some people than other forms.

-where does it come from?

It comes from the need of the organism to acheive a physical, mental, and emotional balance.

-at what place in the human being does it have its action?

The entire organism may be affected, from the cellular level on down or up.

-by what mechanism does this action take place?

By the mental release of intention, sometimes referred to as "letting go," or surrendering the need to do anything.

-what is the result of this action?

Its continued practice may result in an increased sense of well-being, release of tension, possible increased immune response, emotional sense of peace, and mental clarity (and other possibly desirable effects not mentioned here). However, it may have negative effects on some people, and its practice in such cases may be advised to be discontinued, either temporarily or permanently, depending on the circumstances. In such case, a practitioner could be advised to seek other types of Relaxation Response, such as self-hypnosis, chanting mantras, watching the breath, "getting away from it all", etc., or consult with a professional health practitioner of a suitable type.

-what is the purpose of the latihan?

A purpose can be derived from applying the above answers, if wanted or needed by the individual personality.

Peace, Philip

From Merin Nielsen, April 23, 2008. Time 7:37

I think Philip's description is better than Bapak's. It presents a model that satisfies the curiosity of my mind much more readily, since it quite "accurately" depicts the essential characteristics of the Subud latihan, yet requires far less acceptance of the invisible, unprovable existence of abstract things.

Cheers,
Merin

From Michael Irwin, April 23, 2008. Time 18:22

Questions by Sjahari:

-what is the latihan?

I have no idea. I just follow instructions.

-where does it come from?

I don't get the impression that it 'comes' from anywhere.

-at what place in the human being does it have its action?

Are there places in me? I have multiple construct models that attribute characteristics - sometimes 'place' - to what I'm focussing on but I don't know which model is correct - if any.

-by what mechanism does this action take place?

What does this mean? I know of no mechanism. Does the question mean 'technique'?

-what is the result of this action?

I feel calm (for a while), more aware of my self (for a while), more conscious of the difficulties of paying attention to anything, more capable of dealing with life's trials with equanimity (though that may be an illusion), more objective about everything (for a while). The unanswered question is what is the result long term? I don't know. Maybe the long-term version of the characteristics listed above are just from the aging of my particular personality.

-what is the purpose of the latihan?

If by 'purpose' is meant 'leading to a goal' I haven't a clue. I have hopes but expect them to be dashed as my cosmology changes. The phenomenal world of life does not indicate to me that it is teleological. It does not even seem to be expressive even though it delights and disgusts.

From sjahari, April 23, 2008. Time 20:13

HI Michael
It is clear from your response that these questions have no meaning or importance to you. And actually i wasnt asking for your personal answer to these questions.

What I am interested in is how it is proposed to respond to interested people when THEY ask such questions. Is the above the response you would give to interested people?

If we go the direction that most of the people responding here seem to be proposing, then when people make inquiries about Subud they will receive a variety of responses ranging from

- "well, there is a doctor from Harvard who can knows what the latihan is although he doesnt do it himself and has never heard of it. You should read his book. "

all the way to:
-"Well, actually, we have no idea what it is and why we do it. Absolutely none. And we do not consider such questions to have any importance at all. We just do it and we dont know why we do it and we have no purpose in doing it. We just like it. "

Personally I do not think this is appropriate. I think that the inquirer deserves to receive two kinds of responses:
1. our personal interpretation of our own experience
2. a reflection and interpretation of Bapak's explanations of what the latihan is all about.

Sjahari.

From Michael Irwin, April 23, 2008. Time 23:17

Hi Sjahari,

You wrote: "What I am interested in is how it is proposed to respond to interested people when THEY ask such questions. Is the above the response you would give to interested people?"

Your asking how I would play the helper role. I would be talking to a single man, not a group of men. I would try to find out as carefully as I could what his frame of reference was and suggest that he talk to so-and-so with a similar frame of reference and leave the door open for us to continue a conversation later if he wished.

"1. our personal interpretation of our own experience
2. a reflection and interpretation of Bapak's explanations of what the latihan is all about."

If I thought the first was called for I would give it and explain that it was just my point of view but by no means the only one. I would refer the person to Bapak as the founder who left a legacy of recorded and written works with which he could agree or disagree as he chose. If, after having read some of that legacy he wanted to discuss his concerns about or praise of Bapak, my view of Bapak or any other matter concerning the place of Bapak within Subud, I would welcome such a discussion. I would probably add that with reference to Bapak's explanations about the latihan, I have found them to be very useful.

From Merin Nielsen, April 24, 2008. Time 2:9

I think Sjahari has left out a third, valuable category of latihan explanation for making available to enquirers, and which is along the lines that Michael suggests:
3. other models that seem potentially helpful, and particularly ones which seem better than Bapak's model.

From David W, April 24, 2008. Time 5:23

Hi Sjahari

"One set of answers to these questions can be found in Bapak’s talks. I would put it to you that your explanation does not provide an answer to any of these questions. Not a single one."

Here are some alternative, complete answers to every one of your questions. Unlike Pak Subuh's model (a) these are historically based, not faith-based, and (b) they do not require a "soul", which is an invention of Plato's, and not central to the major religions on Earth. It did not exist in early Judaism. It was introduced into both Christianity and Islam by Greek-influenced philosophers. And it is not a feature of any of the Eastern religions.

-what is the latihan?
The latihan is a form of spontaneous exercise for advanced practitioners of Silat, of which Subuh was a student. In the form of spontaneous Silat that became the latihan, the tradition is that one practitioner "opens" another to a universal "inner energy". The opened practitioner then starts to move spontaneously.

-where does it come from?
Most recently, it comes from Central Java. Before that, it came from China. The founder of Subud told a story in which the practice originated through him, through a Javanese tradition called "wahyu", but the anthropological evidence is that all the Central Javanese teachers tell the same kind of story, even though all their teachings and practices are clearly derived from earlier local teachings and practices.

-at what place in the human being does it have its action?
On the whole human being. The objective of both the latihan as explained by Subuh, and the spontaneous silat from which the latihan is derived, is to be able to spontaneously and unreflectively do the right thing in a given situation, without being pulled by base impulses (what Kierkegaard called "lower immediacy"), and neither with the need for reflective thinking. One can experience a form of this state when one becomes proficient in a sport, or playing a musical instrument: one plays expertly, sometimes amazingly, from the whole of your being, without reflection, and without the distortions of extreme emotion such as anger or desire to win.

Note: It's potentially misleading to start talking about the latihan "having an action". The latihan, as is clear both in the term Subuh used for it, and in its cultural history, is an exercise. We don't ask "at what place in the human being does an exercise have its action." More properly, we ask about effect.

-by what mechanism does this action take place?
This is not known, but there is no basic reason that we could not find out if we stopped sacralizing the latihan, and instead started openly examining its origins, and connecting it to the enormous pool of existing knowledge about human functioning and experience that we already have at hand. Unfortunately, the basis and mechanisms of the latihan have been sacralized, mythologised and obscured by a chain of human beings acting out of interests that have little to do with the accurate transmission of this interesting tradition.

-what is the result of this action?
Over time, an increasingly prolonged state of "high immediacy". To use a sporting metaphor: to live the whole of your life as Tiger Woods plays golf.

-what is the purpose of the latihan?
Again, the phrasing of this question is potentially misleading. The latihan is an exercise; it is ascribed a purpose by different human beings. In its original Chinese and Javanese form, the purpose was to attain this naturalness and fluidity of being described above. The Javanese Silat practitioners saw the latihan as having two aspects: an outer aspect, which involved becoming a good fighter, and an inner or spiritual aspect, which involved becoming a good human being that lived in this world in this state of unreflective flow. External rules were for beginners, the advanced practitioners would be able to make the right moves in both fighting and in life, spontaneously.

When he became a spiritual teacher, Subuh took this silat practice out of its context, and made it more publicly available. In doing that, he gave the silat explanation: which is to be moved spontaneously by the great life force, tenaga dalam, or qi. This explanation however gets a dim view from Java's orthodox Muslims, and the whole relationship between Silat and Javanese mysticism on the one hand, and orthodox Islam on the other, is highly charged, and even violent. Subuh therefore also added an Islamicised explanation: which it that the latihan and its purpose were to be moved by "God's power", as an alternative term for "life force".

Subud only grew and become internationalised, however, when it was discovered by the followers of Bennett, who—according to their own literature—were embarked on a millenarian, messianic search for a new dispensation: a successor to all earlier religions. With this came then an overlay of the latihan as a form of receiving "grace", and as a form of "worship". But if you strip back the Javanese and European historical and cultural overlays--i.e. assignments of a purpose to the latihan due to particular sectarian interests and situation of the actors at the time--then you get back to the Silat "purpose", which is basically unmodified transmission of the Chinese tradition, unmodified over 2000 years. That purpose is described above.

Best

David

From David W, April 24, 2008. Time 6:44

Hi Stefan

"To an extent it must depend on the listener, and in the case of my audience in Edinburgh I can't agree with your assumption that nothing of interest was communicated."

I am not making an assumption. I making an observation about the language you are using. I'll focus on just one term:

"inner directed life: Most people attending the Edinburgh event were keenly interested in this theme."

Then how do you account for the fact that "inner directed life" gets a whoppingly low 57 hits on the whole of the 4 billion pages on the Internet? There are 428,000 sites which make some mention of Middle Eastern spirituality. Exactly zero of them have any reference to "inner directed life". The Festival website itself makes no mention of such a thing. How is it possible that all of these keenly interested people have failed ever to mention it on the Internet?

Question 1: If these people are keenly interested, and it looks like they're not using the term you are using, what term are they using?

Question 2: Why don't you use their language, instead of making up terms which no-one else appears to use?

That's on the matter of language. But I don't think that all of these people really are interested in an "inner directed life". The Festival is explicity centred on "Middle Eastern Spirituality". There are three major religions, that I know of, which come out of the Middle East: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. None of them, to my knowledge — even in their mystlcal forms, or their spiritual practices — suggest that one should lead an "inner directed life".

As an example, all of these==in addition to whatever spiritual practices they may have--have texts, ethics, codes and laws. These "outer" forms are considered as essential to the direction of life as any "inner" direction. I'll bet you that if you look through the whole of the Tanakh, the Gospels, and the Qur'an, you won't find any mention to such a thing either. I think you'd even find it hard to find, in Middle Eastern spiritual traditions, any extensive discussion of the distinction between "inner" and "outer". It's the Sufis, and the Javanese (and the Japanese, interestingly), that make this big deal out of the "inner" and "outer" person.

But it's in Java that one finds the idea that by spiritual practice, you acquire an inner directedness that surpasses the need for any outer rule or law. It's a commonplace there, and the Muslims there take a dim view of it. And in Subud, I'm personally weary of seeing people undertake "inner guidance" at the expense of "outer common sense", and then making a complete (and predictable) hash of whatever it is there doing, thus hurting themselves and others.

Question 3: Find me a form of Middle Eastern spirituality in which the good life is seen as "inner directed". (Let's leave Sufism out of it, for the time being, because that might be one form, but also one that attracts some criticism for just that reason.)

As I understand it, you come from a Jewish heritage. To me, this is one of the richest and most profound religious heritages on Earth. My Jewish friends accuse me of being a closet Jew! And I am fond of saying that Judaism contains so much wisdom, because they've been at it longer than almost anyone else, and therefore has had more time to iron the bugs out. And I believe that. I also have books by Rabbis on my bookshelves, that are best-sellers to the non-Jewish population (Rabbis Schmuel Boteach and Steven Z Leder come to mind.) These are people that know how to communicate about life!

Question 4: Why don't you develop an understanding of the latihan within the rich, complex Jewish tradition?

I think that such a Jewish understanding of the latihan would be so much more readily received and understood by a Festival on Middle Eastern Spirituality and Peace, than a Javan understanding. It would also represent a major contribution to Subud.

Best

David

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