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Subud Vision - Discussion

Stefan Freedman - Subud at Middle East Spirituality and Peace Festival

show and tell. From sjahari, April 9, 2008. Time 4:30

Stefan,
This is a fascinating article you have written. I am particularly interested in the excercises you have chosen to introduce the idea of the latihan.

It is very difficult to tell people in words what the latihan is and in general we do a very poor job of it. How much better to actually demonstrate and give a taste of the experience.

There are many exercises similar to those you have described, which are used in interpretative dance and improvisational contexts and which could be adapted for this purpose. The whole concept of movement from an inner impulse with eyes closed is applicable here. (The practice of Authentic Movement makes use of this.)

The other interesting element would be to have a discussion of how (or whether) the latihan is different in an essential way from such an excercise.

Is there something unique that happens in the latihan itself, in this "vibration" we seem to follow and which we believe is passed along in a direct line from Bapak? What is the essence that makes the latihan any different from a multitude of other similar practices like the ones you have described?

Why would someone need to join the Subud latihan? What could they get there that they might not get from simply improvising with eyes closed this way?

Fascinating questions.

Did you actually demonstrate the latihan to people? If not ......why not? Would you consider doing that? Would you be afraid of opening people accidentally? (A lot of Subud people would be deathly afraid of that.) Is that an important issue?

I think it would be very interesting to develop this idea more fully and completely.

Sjahari


From stefan freedman, April 20, 2008. Time 18:4

Hi Sjahari,
I'm encouraged by your feedback. Sounds as though you've done quite a bit of spontaneous/authentic movement.

I have a few hesitations about demonstrating the latihan itself. Firstly, the one you mention, that people might possibly be opened. I'm in favour of shortening & simplifying the introductory period but would not want to open someone with no prep or without their consent.

Also I'm concerned that in a public display I'd be feeling self-conscious and would either find myself unable to receive or else would receive a sort of clearing latihan which wouldn't convey the deep, transporting quality that can arise as the latihan continues.

How is the latihan different from spontaneous movement?
Aha, this is the million dollar question I've enjoyed dialoguing with you and others about. Much as I thrive on free movement and dance I often FEEL something in latihan which I haven't experienced elsewhere, and which I've come to relish as a regular source of nourishment.

Unlike many of my Subud peers I no longer feel able to describe my latihan as worship of God, but I do experience the exercise as a powerful numinous experience, and its effects as integrative. I have the sense of being opened up, stretched and re-connected with a large spacious consciousness. Often I'm left feeling simultaneously stilled and revitalised.

When talking with others I mention that not everyone perceives the latihan as unique. Some equate it with dynamic meditation or spontaneous Qi Kung, for some it's a spontaneous form of prayer or communion with spirit, and others find little action or benefit. Each person's response is individual and nobody else can predict it or interpret it.

How about you, Sjahari? How do you find that the Subud latihan differs from improvising with eyes closed in another context? If/when you explain it to an enquirer (perhaps using Bapak's experiences as a basis) what sort of response are you getting?

Thanks for responding & best wishes
Stefan


From sjahari, April 21, 2008. Time 0:59

Hi Stefan,
thanks for your reply to mine

Like you I feel something happening in the latihan which does not happen in the other spontaneous movement practices I engage in. It seems to be something that is arising within me and beyond my own will. ANd it seems to be arising from a totally different source. It also has a different direction and a different motivation within it.

The way I would describe this, as well as what you have said in your note, is reflected exactly in Bapak’s words. This is why I resist the attempts to relegate Bapak to becoming “a petal on the flower” of Subud. ( Was that your analogy?)

I think that all three of us (you, me, and Bapak) are trying to describe the same thing that happens. And when I read Bapak’s talks I find that his descriptions and explanations of the experience are amongst the best I have yet seen or heard. I much prefer them to yours for instance, or to my own weak attempts, or to those of the others writing in Subudvision. This does not mean that I think that Bapak's explanation should be the only one. It does mean that I believe it should be the core original source of reference until such time as a better one arises.

It seems to me we probably agree that there is something that happens in the latihan, and that is passed along in the opening, which is an energy or vibration of some kind. (which is why in general we are reluctant to demonstrate it).

This something can be traced in you and I back to the person who opened us. And from there it can be traced back to the person who opened them. And for every subud member, after tracing the contact back 3 or 4 stages, we get to one common place. Bapak’s experience.

Therefore Bapak is not a petal on this flower. No. He is at the very center and core of the entire thing, and in a certain sense he truly is the “father”. And in so far as mankind eventually embraces the latihan, in that sense he could be called the “father of mankind”

I am sure these thoughts will trigger all KINDS of opposition. But in my mind it is a logical extension of the ideas you have raised in your original article, and in your reply.

best wishes
Sjahari


From Philip Quackenbush, April 21, 2008. Time 6:9

Hi Stefan and Sjahari,

I found your article fascinating, in that it demonstrates how the "latihan" can be introduced to non-members in various ways. I think the reluctance to do so comes from the statements of the founder that it should be kept within the group if it is to be referred to as Subud. But he also said that that's not possible, since people are free to do with it what they want, or "receive" to do. Nevertheless, it's something that is a universal phenomenon, IMO, and can only be seen as parochial or elitist when held close to the vest, as many Subud members seem to regard it as being necessary.

As to the idea that the "latihan" came from "God" through the founder of Subud and could only be a result in other instances of some unknown line of succession, the lie is clearly put to that by so many other religions and movements that have it. A good example of that is the books of Tony Crisp, where he mentions that before coming to Subud, he was teaching his students how to "receive" spontaneous movements and members from the local Subud group thought he had "stolen" the "latihan". When he was "opened", he found no difference (which was the case with others that I've met, and my experience was similar, coming from a source that clearly preceded Muhammad Subuh's "receiving" of it [probably by several hundred years, if not thousands of years]; I only remembered the sameness after being a Subud member for a couple of decades, since I had only experienced it once in the other group). Decades after being "opened" in Subud, I found what could be called a "restricted" (to the already-learned forms) "latihan" happening in a Taiji class under the label of "free Taiji". I suspect that many of the people experiencing charismatic phenomena you can see on Christian TV channels would find the "latihan" to be the same as what they have going in their groups.

Of course, it can all be put under the subheading of self-hypnosis, but looked at from a deistic standpoint, that wouldn't matter, since hypnosis is part of nature, and therefore must come from "God" (a sentiment similar to what M. Subuh said in some of his lectures, but open to dispute in terms of traditional Islam, which separates "God" from nature).

Anyway, one of the techniques Crisp suggests for achieving spontaneous movement is to stand with your side next to a wall and press your arm against it for a while, then move away from the wall and watch it rise spontaneously. Once a person realizes that spontaneous movement is nothing to fear (everybody does it every day, consciously or unconsciously (yawns and breathing are two examples that we can't avoid), then they're "ripe" to "receive" it for, say, a half hour at a time, and can get the consequent benefits that come from "letting go."

Peace, Philip


From stefan, April 21, 2008. Time 10:33

Hi Sjahari & Philip

Good to be having a discussion with you about the nature of the latihan and how to communicate about it.

Sjahari, you say that you find Bapak's explanation of the latihan more persuasive than mine or any on Subud Vison.
How then does Bapak's explanation differ from the one I gave in Edinburgh? ...

I summarised the Subud process (in my experience) with 5 points:

• inner vibration

• movement and sound arising unbidden

• discarding ‘psychic baggage’

• connection with that-which-is-beyond-words (transpersonal)

• peace and fullness (peace-fulness)

The results of Subud over a period of time, in 5 points:

• unfolding of potentials

• inner directed life

• release from self-harming habits (often)

• pushed to edge of capacity and stretched

• regular contact and renewal from unifying source

Bapak urged us to talk about Subud from our own experience.
In fact all I was aware of doing was putting one or two points in my own words. For example, the word "purification" has connotations that (to my mind) are puritanical and punitive so I used a more contemporary phrase - discarding psychic baggage.

In practice I think you and I both share a desire to communicate as effectively as possible the essence of Subud.
You see Bapak as being at the centre but he said "Subud is You, and ou are Subud". Suppose I emphasise the revelation, the person and the talks of Subud's founder, I'd be giving a misleading impression: that Subud is a guru-based movement (whose leading light is deceased). This might be the kiss of death for a spiritual peer group I value very highly.

Philip, I agree that the latihan may arise from the same source as other spontaneous practices such as intuitive Qi Kung, Javanese Kejawan, dynamic meditation, charismatic Christianity and co-ex. In practice though it seems to me that people tend to have very different experiences if they participate in each of these groups.

For example, a good friend, Ken, who has studied Qi Kung for years and now teaches it tells me that he is not yet able to access spontaneous movements. A woman friend who attended several charismatic church meetings said that many people would stand for some time waiting for spirit to move them, then typically they would swoon and fall over, or sometimes burst into a sustained "fit" of giggles. She later got opened and described latihan in very different terms.

I'm glad you make reference to other groups which offer a spontaneous exercise or prayer. When Subud members talk as though we've invented the spiritual wheel it makes us look naive or arrogant. At the same time I recommend that interested people try more than one group, to see whether (for them) the experience is the same, and - if not - to discover which gives them the most integral result.

Best wishes from Stefan


From Philip Quackenbush, April 21, 2008. Time 15:41

Hi, Stefan,

You said:

Bapak urged us to talk about Subud from our own experience.
In fact all I was aware of doing was putting one or two points in my own words. For example, the word "purification" has connotations that (to my mind) are puritanical and punitive so I used a more contemporary phrase - discarding psychic baggage.

===

Well, he also went out of his way to state several times during his latter years of talking about the "latihan" to say things like only he was making "progress" in the "latihan" and the rest of us looked like Swiss cheese from a "spiritual" perspective, not something calculated to encourage anyone to go out and talk about it confidently. I agree with the point made elsewhere on this forum that the turning point in his march to megalomania and the stifling of anyone else's expression came with the taking over of the Pewarta as his exclusive domain, which was around the 70's, the time that I have noted that, IMO, he "lost his Mojo".

Peace, Philip


From sjahari, April 22, 2008. Time 0:23

Hi Stefan:
You asked me to explain why I feel your summary of the subud process in 5 points doesnt match the one Bapak gave:

-Inner vibration
-but you havent said what it is that is being vibrated, nor how this entity began vibrating.
-Bapak has no qualms about stating what it is that is vibrating and how it comes to be vibrating.

- movement and sound arising unbidden
-You havent explained from where it is arising. What is it that is initiating this movement and this sound? And for what purpose?
-Bapak’s various talks reveal his position on this in quite a lot of detail.
(-a scream of destructive rage is also a movement and sound arising unbidden. . . what is the distinguishing characteristic?)

- discarding “psychic baggage”
-if what you mean by this is the concept of purification, then I think this is a fine way of rephrasing one of the core concepts that we have about what happens in the latihan. But it isnt different. It is just a rephrasing of what Bapak said into more modern language.

- Connection with that-which-is-beyond-words
-again you are just rephrasing what Bapak said here. And in fact in many of his talks he says exactly this - that the idea of a God cannont be expressed in words.
-so you are changing “connection with God”
to “Connection with that-which-is-beyond-words”
I agree this is more relevant to our times, and I totally agree that this is what we should be doing. But lets not start to believe that we have gone beyond Bapak’s explanation with it.

- Peace and fullness (peace-fullness)
-again, in my view you can find this using different language throughout Bapak’s talks. And this doesnt include the very real aspect that often there is a great deal of inner turmoil that occurs and that the latihan is often not a peaceful blissful experience. And the biggest thing. You havent explained is Why. Bapak does this. He explains exactly why we feel the bliss. ANd he explains what it is that is in the blissful state.
(bliss can also occur smoking a joint. . . what is the essence of the difference?)

Regarding your statements about the results of Subud:
again, most of these things are found in Bapak’s talks. the reason I like Bapak’s explanation better than yours is that he explains WHY there are these results. What you have done is to say that there are certain results that just seem to happen out of the blue. For instance - unfolding of potential. . . what does this mean in your explanation? In Bapak’s schemata it is very clear. He talks about a potential which he calls an “inner talent” which is a component of the soul. It is this component which is supposed to unfold as a result of doing the latihan.
“Unfolding of potentials” could be applied to many different things such as for instance a practice of listening to music as a child. That could result in flowering of potentials. Absolutely. But it is not the same kind of unfolding of potential that occurs as a result of doing the latihan.

Finally: I agree that we are essentially on the same page in a desire to communicate the latihan effectively. We also I think share the same concern about subud becoming a guru based movement, or being perceived as such.

I agree wholeheartedly in the effort to find new ways of explaining the core experience of subud.

And I agree wholeheartedly with what you are doing as an individual to try and come to your own personal understanding of the latihan and trying to develop a way of explaining that to other people. I am doing the same thing.

Like you I resist every tendency to worship Bapak like a guru. And at the same time I value everything about what he did and said. ANd I acknowledge it as being core to this practice.

And I continue to have the personal opinion that there are no other explanations so far developed that come anywhere close to the completness and breadth and depth of those provided by him.

-


From Philip Quackenbush, April 22, 2008. Time 1:53

Hi, Stefan,

On rereading your post, I note the following:

"Ken, who has studied Qi Kung for years and now teaches it tells me that he is not yet able to access spontaneous movements."

One of the characteristics of the "latihan" process seems to be that it's induced by being in the presence of someone who's already "open" to it, i.e., has the process going within themselves. When it's given as shaktipat by a yogi "master", that's the case then as well. I first got it when sitting in a group of meditators of a yogic tradition, and later realized that the "latihan" was the same thing. Ken might look for someone who does spontaneous qigong and then, after having it induced in him, get "opened" and compare the two. I find that the main difference is that the qigong is freer, in that it doesn't have the baggage attached to it of the Subud theology; it just happens and you follow it.

"A woman friend who attended several charismatic church meetings said that many people would stand for some time waiting for spirit to move them, then typically they would swoon and fall over, or sometimes burst into a sustained "fit" of giggles. She later got opened and described latihan in very different terms."

Such experiences are common to people practicing the "latihan" as well. I've observed that, despite the founder's comments to the contrary, it makes a difference with whom you do "latihan" in a group setting. Also, there's a lot of conscious or unconscious copying of others' movements. The early history of Subud before it acquired that name as a pencak silat club illustrates that quite well, I think. Kejawen (the Javanese religion that is the source of much of Muhammad Subuh's "explanations") seems to regard pencak silat as a "spiritual" discipline, as do some qigong practitioners. In the founder's mind, however, it got colored, as I see it, by his views of Islam, which in many cases, just as in the case of Christianity and Judaism, were far from the mark (i.e., sinful, in the original meaning of the word).

I think it's best to just take the "latihan" for what it is and leave the theology to those who insist on attaching it to the phenomenon, as do the Christians with the charismatic phenomena, but not insist on "explaining" it in those terms to applicants unless they ask for such a view, because that will only contaminate their psyche, requiring further "purification" to relieve them of those beliefs. Ideally, the "latihan", IMO, should be approached with no beliefs about what it is or what will happen when one practices it. That may allow the organism which looks upon itself as a separate human being to possibly experience something resembling Reality in its practice. That does, of course, mean that any "helpers" who are attempting to "explain" it better be talking only from their own personal experience and not parroting anyone else, including the founder or his daughter, something I have yet to see in any applicant meetings I've been involved in. Another reason, perhaps, that the whole "helper" system needs to be either revised or abandoned.

Peace, Philip


From Merin Nielsen, April 22, 2008. Time 10:9

Hi, Sjahari,

You say: "... when I read Bapak’s talks I find that his descriptions and explanations of the experience are amongst the best I have yet seen or heard. I much prefer them to yours for instance, or to my own weak attempts, or to those of the others writing in Subudvision. ..... I believe it should be the core original source of reference until such time as a better one arises. ..... And I continue to have the personal opinion that there are no other explanations so far developed that come anywhere close to the completness and breadth and depth of those provided by him."

I note your belief that Bapak's description of the latihan should be 'the' core original source of reference until such time as a better one
arises. Do you consider, like me, that it's entirely a personal matter for each individual to observe whether he or she is already at 'such time as a better one arises'?

Regards,
Merin


From David Week, April 22, 2008. Time 16:40

Hi Stefan

At one level, I don't want to "engage" (i.e. debate) with this issue, but at the other level I would like to feed back from what I see as a more "public" level of perception. It's okay to have personal and private experience, but Jody Williams and Albert Einstein and Muhammad Yunus and the Dalai Lama are meaningful to other people not because of their personal and private experience, but because of their contribution to others, and to the public sphere.

From this perspective, here are some responses to these descriptions.

• inner vibration: so what? Why should anyone cares?

• movement and sound arising unbidden: so what? What should anyone care?

• discarding ‘psychic baggage': many processes claims this--is Subud's claim true? Does it do this better, or worse, or average? Why is this comparative question not explored.

• connection with that-which-is-beyond-words (transpersonal): so what? What should anyone care? Having now explored many other religions, I'm prepared to say tha this "connection" is either minor or irrelevant in most religions. At the same time, it seems that Subud focuses so much on "personal experience" that it falls into the camp of The New Age, of which someone once said (in my view, accurately) New Age will never produce a Gandhi, because New Age (and in my view most of Subud) is All About Me.

• peace and fullness (peace-fulness): Yes, fine, but talk to some Stoners and you'll get the same story.

The results of Subud over a period of time, in 5 points:

• unfolding of potentials: Frankly, I've never seen such unfulfilled potential as I see in the Subud community, so I don't believe it.

• inner directed life: so what? Why should we care? To give you an objective measure of this, google <"inner directed life">: you will get an amazingly low 57 hits. It's not an important human value.

• release from self-harming habits (often): You're in competition with many other processes. Are you better at it? Worse? Average? It's your social responsibility to find out, isn't it? Unless, of course, you're only concerned with yourself, in which case see most of the comments above.

• pushed to edge of capacity and stretched: Don't see it in the community, so don't believe it.

• regular contact and renewal from unifying source: So what? Why should anyone care? People love Rumi's poetry. He's on about this. But beyond the poetry, he was a pretty non-productive, self-involved person who actully caused a lot of pain to people around him. And Subes are not good poets. So again: who cares? How is this different from the Stoner story, man?

As you know, I think you're a solid guy. But I don't think the story you are telling here is going to ever attract other solid people, because it doesn't seem to be connected to the meat of the life that people care about and apire to.

(a) "latihan connects me to renewing source"-- 3 points
(b) "latiahn demonstrably allows all people (not just me) to be better mothers and fathers -- 100 points, for both me and for humanity

Best

David


From stefan, April 23, 2008. Time 0:26

Responding to Sjahari, David & Philip...

Hi Sjahari,
You put your points very well. I would say that if a Subud member believes that the latihan comes from God's power and acts on the soul, and if talking with an enquirer who believes in God and in souls too, then Bapak's explanation -which explains the source - is likely to be more convincing than one like mine.

On the other hand, this applies only when all the above conditions are met. For those who may not believe in God, or those who believe in God but are sceptical about claims that the latihan is a link to that source, the type of explanation you recommend requires a major leap of faith, whereas one can follow the latihan without faith.

Philip,
You speculate that when Bapak took control of the Perwarta it was a significant turning point and I agree. I love some of the early Subud Journals for their sense of a peer group exploring, communicating about and co-creating a movement.
I would not expect all the voices to have equal gravitas but it's the diversity and freshness I relish. It's high time Subud members reclaimed the right to share their issues and their visions. (Muzel Tov Sahlan, David and Subud Vision for taking the initiative)

David,
You wrote "I don't think the story you are telling here is going to ever attract other solid people, because it doesn't seem to be connected to the meat of the life that people care about and aspire to."

The participatory presentation I was invited to give was at a "peace and spirituality" event, and was tailored to it.
The Edinburgh group chairwoman who attended said that several people approached her afterwards interested to talk with her about Subud. People approached me too. They were genuine, intelligent people - mostly professionals or staudents - who seemed "solid" enough to me.

• inner directed life: so what? Why should we care?

Most people attending the Edinburgh event were keenly interested in this theme

• regular contact and renewal from unifying source: So what?

(as above)

• peace and fullness (peace-fulness): Yes, fine, but talk to some Stoners and you'll get the same story

The audience were attending workshops which recommended supporting work for peace in the world with an inner practice which helps restore calm. My aim was to was include Subud among the practices which may help. (None of the ways mentioned required getting stoned or dropping out)

David, I really do see what you're driving at and I'm reaching for ways to describe Subud in ways that connect with "the meat of life". For example you'd like to refer to some solid evidence such as the latihan helps all mothers and fathers to be better parents. That would present a very compelling case, but does any evidence of this kind exist?

I find myself in the position of someone who relishes an obscure music band that many others don't care for. I can't promise any benefit, or even that my friend will like it. I can say that of the minority who appreciate the music some find it powerfully moving and special.

This seems to be the kind of subjective, wafty statement that gets up your nose - but what else can one honestly say? There are many popular bands around and in no way am I suggesting that the band I like is "better". I'm saying - you might want to check it out, too. What do you say about Subud?

To an extent it must depend on the listener, and in the case of my audience in Edinburgh I can't agree with your assumption that nothing of interest was communicated.

Best wishes from Stefan


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