Subud Vision - Discussion

Sahlan Diver - The Rise and Fall of the AntiSubud Site

update on the anti subud site. From Em, July 11, 2009. Time 14:15

I had a look at the Anti Subud site and had a read through. There were some interesting discussions early on, but due to there being no moderator the site does now contain abusive messages. More recently it's been latched onto by fundamentalist Christians who are enjoying not being moderated. At least they don't swear!

From Sahlan Diver, July 11, 2009. Time 14:44

Dear Em,

I agree with you that the Anti-Subud site is interesting early on, but the later abusive messages and swearing are now too tedious for my taste, so I have only revisited the site once since writing my article on it. I tried to contact the former moderator but was unsuccessful,


Sahlan Diver

From Bronte, July 13, 2009. Time 3:37

The anti-Subud site is a bit of an anpmaly. Some of us still there are Subud/Christians, and yet still a few Subud types are throwing in their two-penneth worth. That is the value in it for me, and possibly others. It is a challenge to all we believe. And life itself does that all the time.
I re-read Prio Hartono's book recently, and it challenges everything I ever knew about Subud too. and he was certainly pro-Subud.

From Philip Quackenbush, July 15, 2009. Time 22:49

Hi, Bronte, et al,

I once read Prio's book, and it didn't challenge much I knew about the cult, but certainly had some interesting viewpoints, which apparently got him in hot water with the Führer, which was also the case when one (or both) of Rofé's books about the cult came out. Of course, the ultimate example, for me, of the Führer's growing megalomania was when he said that the Pewarta was no longer to contain anything except his "talks" and "advice", which, IMO, was perhaps the main factor that led to its demise (after all, he doesn't give "talks" any more, and they're all coming out in the blue "Bible", supposedly, anyway). Insofar as the cult continues to be of benefit for the members in some way, it will probably continue to exist, but without the Führer around any more to set up and enforce his "rules that aren't rules", it will probably continue to decline if the "helper" structure isn't either revised or eliminated. Remember, he kept saying that the "helpers" were responsible for the condition of the members (which is manifestly wrong, since everyone is responsible for their own condition, but...), so, if there's even a grain of truth in that, then the condition of the "helpers" will determine the health of the cult.

This forum, BTW, is now my only regular contact with the cult, having decided that I don't really need grope "latihan" any more on my own (although I continue to do quick "tests" about some things that come my way [like today, deciding not to get some online offer on the basis of my subconscious {the conscious connekka to the subconscious, the subconscious connekka to the stuporconscious, the stuporconscious connekka to the Akashic Wreck cord, now hear the word of the Lawd} being allowed to shake my head "no" when asked about it, even though I could afford it]), not leaving it under duress, as in your case.

Peace, Philip

From Bronte, July 16, 2009. Time 1:42

If only the Beetles were all still around, and were in Subud instead of Maharishi's club. Then we could have them test if love is all there is.
Lack of loving, caring interaction between people who talk about it is the proof to non-Subudists that "we", the "true believers", beleive the wrong things. I suspect that those people who manage to be nice to each other will in fact be all that is left of Subud eventually, if any. It remains a puzzle to me that so few people are willing to actually examine the facts of thing which happen between people in Subud, and thus easily resolve some issues which have festered for decades, like the John Ross tragedy. Instead people worry about the consequences of letting the truth be known, or the conseqences of a helper being offended by being told to apologise to someone, or Subud having a bad mark on its reputation, or even about what is truth.
Some human matters can be resolved by just being human, not being Subud, or Christian,or anything but normal.
I think there is room for some more review of Prio's Subud verus Pak Subuh's Subud. I'd like to read more about the contrast.

From marcus Bolt, July 16, 2009. Time 9:51

Hi Bronte

Being someone who was well and truly &*%$£@+ over by my ex-group, I can empathise with your heartfelt wonderment at why Subuds don't want to work out why things turned nasty, or why their actions hurt others.

The following was in a recent WSA News “...the latihan makes us so sensitive and open to each other that there is a huge potential for deep, devastating hurt. In most centers there is a reservoir of hurt from past attempts to work together. There are a LOT of skeletons in our closets and we mostly don't know how to even begin handle these old hurt feelings. So it seems we need to hit the "refresh" button on the way we work with committees and enterprises.”

At least there's acknowledgment, but still the same old 'hit the refresh button'... in other words 'forget the past; let's move on, start over, get over it' etc etc ad nauseam.

I've always liked CS Lewis' statement (paraphrased here); you can't move to a good place from a bad place. Like an equation that contains an error, you have to go back and correct the wrong part before you can get to the right answer.

As for 'being normal' type solutions, in all fairness, this happens rarely even in the non-Subud world as well. But the Subud way of doing things makes it even harder because bringing in professional mediators or specialist therapists, or even talking about it, is considered 'not surrendering'; most people have learned to 'test away' their guilt/anger/frustration, whatever, rather than address it, so there's no hope of resolution, ever.

I tried to forgive the perpetrators of my demise, but, as a wise old friend (ex-Subud) said to me, 'You can't forgive someone who doesn't want your forgiveness.' In other words, if they still think they were right in what they did, so there's no hope of the necessary empathy, mutual understanding and remorse essential for reconciliation.

And even though their leader says 'wanting to be right is the single most deleterious thing to your progress', they ignore that.

That's my experience, anyway. As you can tell, I still hurt.

From Sahlan Diver, July 16, 2009. Time 12:41


Interesting that even their acknowledgement that wrong has been done still seems to be wanting to partially shift responsibility onto the victims ( i.e. Subud makes us "extra-sensitive" ) How about an alternative explanation that Subud makes us "more careless in our our actions towards our fellow members" ?


From Bronte, July 16, 2009. Time 14:17

Thanks for the empathy people.
What amazes me on top of all this stuff is that, as described elsewhere, several times, an event years ago was carefully and RATIONALLY discussed, consideration was made of of information supplied, the editor of a global Subud newsletter published an article about the woes in my part of the world, only to be verbally reprimanded for that by a person in the "Royalty " of Subud in Australia. We had shared a phone conversatin before that item was published, and it was quite clear to the editor concerned that my story was far from unique, hence my comment was published.
I just want to tell the story of What Happened, with ALL names included, full names too, and let the lawyers work it out. If Subud people some of us deal with are even more horrible than we ever though they could be, then a bit of reality might stir the pot. After all, there's a little saying we used to hear in Subud "It must Out"
Well, that is why I used at least two people's names on the anti-Subud site, hoping it might just provoke the use of a mirror. I've had a good look in mine, and what I see is not all bad, no matter what general opinion might be. I can't say the same for all those people standing behind me with daggers at the ready.

From Michael, July 16, 2009. Time 23:17

Marcus:"The following was in a recent WSA News “...the latihan makes us so sensitive and open to each other that there is a huge potential for deep, devastating hurt. In most centers there is a reservoir of hurt from past attempts to work together. There are a LOT of skeletons in our closets and we mostly don't know how to even begin handle these old hurt feelings. So it seems we need to hit the "refresh" button on the way we work with committees and enterprises.”

At least there's acknowledgment, but still the same old 'hit the refresh button'... in other words 'forget the past; let's move on, start over, get over it' etc etc ad nauseam."

The context of that quote is the 'Badger' project and enterprises. I think that makes the statement rather local and limited.


From marcus Bolt, July 17, 2009. Time 0:26

Ah! That's disappointing... I thought it might be a possible Congress theme or something, it being in a WSA News, like. Thanks for the info, Michael... I was deluded (again).


From Philip Quackenbush, July 17, 2009. Time 1:6

Well, IMO, grassroots revolution is probably the only way the cult will ever change to keep up with the rest of the whirl, so any local change in attitudes is better than none any where, but I haven't seen much evidence of that in this local Aryan, it being sort of connected at the hip with the US national orifice. If the Indonesian hierarchical model continues to hold sway, though, it will just stay top down forever, I wot.

Peace, Philip

From Bronte, July 17, 2009. Time 1:17

How many ways are ther to deal with things in our lives that hurt us?
In Christianity, we are supposed(?) to:
1) Forgive then forget
2) Ask forgiveness for our sins (read"mistakes") to others.
3) Stop doing what we have discovered is wrong in ourselves.
In Subud we have to:
1) Say it is our own fault that someone has offended us and made us leave, or whatever we have done to cope.
2) Ignore the continued torment by the , usually, helpers who upset us.
3) Get on with life despite the scars in our hearts and running festering wounds in our souls.
4) Expect no one to acknowledge that they did anything wrong, even if their actions caused the group to split, or dissolve, or if the dishonesty or incompetence left a family destitute after supporting a failed enterprise. A Christian group might support the people they hurt, in return for the help they got. And a Moslem goup? I do not know. Others?
Now, we can do better.
A sit down discussion with all parties is one way, sometimes.
It needs a bigger debate than any I have been in yet, and a willingness to re-asses how things were done, one by one.
I know my comments have ceased to be about the anti-Subud web site. It's just that those people there are telling Subud people how wrong we are. And there's too much truth in it to be funny.

From Bronte, July 19, 2009. Time 6:16

I guess that nakedness is the only way to see the real story. So take of the veils and so on, and know the truth. It is a kind of freedom. If Subud cannot offer freedom, then it has noting to offer. People do not like the naked truth. But lovers do. So let's learn to be loving. And don't get too upset at my analogies. Try and get the reality behind the glitz. We can all throw away those old thing that the Subud organisation's got stuck on. What is left is OURS! Talking about a grass roots revolution. Just extend my analogies to the limits of your imaginations.
Philip, you come across as even more disillusioned than I have been. I hope I have addressed your needs as well as I have thought out my own right now.

From Philip Quackenbush, July 19, 2009. Time 7:44

Hey, Bronte,

I don't think it's so much a question of disillusion in my case as just waking up to the way things are to the extent that I have. And the SUBorg isn't all "bad", as I may have given the impression that I consider it to be that, but it's important to point out what's "wrong" before anything can be changed for the "better." If you don't see that there's something askew, how likely are you to set it straight?

Also, a lot of what I've observed over the years is now just history, and some stuff has already changed. For example, der Führer is dead, so there's now some greater possibility of more members no longer fawning over what he said as necessarily oracular, having had sufficient experience and gained enough knowledge of the facts to come up with their own opinions and conclusions. In addition (or maybe subtraction?), even though I think die Führer (I'm not declining German lessons, but it probably shouldn't be die because he's already dead, right? And der seems more correct now because he seemed to be always daring anyone to contradict him and became furious when anyone actually dared to do so) sometimes pointed out when not on a megolomaniacal kick, the SUBorg has to evolve to keep from being static or devolving.

Peace, Philip

From Bronte, July 20, 2009. Time 14:59

I guess I/we all could stop annoying people with my/our opinion by just acknowledging that it was all said in that wonderful quote from Gone With The Wind :
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Because, apart from the few people writing here, that sums up the total response of the Subud people in Australia, as far as I have seen over the time of my involvement in Subud, which is all of my adult working life and part of my teenage years and the total part of my retirement to date.
I just got moved to write this after reading the Solutions part of this site, and the content, a tiny bit of it from me, of the anti-Subutd site, to whichrhis line of discussion(?) is addressed.
I could not even provoke a response recntly by mentioning something to at least three Subud acquaintances I have known in this country.
so: " Frankly, my dear, THEY don't give a damn."
I will keep on doing what I can anyway, both in trying to un-mess my life, whatever is left of it, and to show respect for and application of the Subud latihan, whatever that is for each person, and mainly what it is for me..

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