Subud Vision - Discussion

Merin Nielsen - Genuinely Open

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From Michael, May 11, 2009. Time 3:0

I am very pressed for time and just skip-read the passages with Iljas. I found them fascinating.

I am puzzled by what seemed to me an absence. Much discussion about culture and the need or not for it and its relationship with the organization.

Yet no mention of the 'multi-cultural' approach to be allowed for or even fostered by the neutral core organization in the form of what David metaphorically called 'petals'. Why was that image not mentioned and developed?

No time for more.

From iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 4:7

Readers: Just wanted to mention a couple of points to demonstrate that some of Bapak's experiences as recounted in his autobiography, contrary to what David Week, stated don't appear to be uniquely Javanese. From St Theresa of Avila's autobiography:

"I saw in his hand a long spear of gold, and at the iron's point there seemed to be a little fire. He appeared to me to be thrusting it at times into my heart, and to pierce my very entrails; when he drew it out, he seemed to draw them out also, and to leave me all on fire with a great love of God. The pain was so great, that it made me moan; and yet so surpassing was the sweetness of this excessive pain, that I could not wish to be rid of it. The soul is satisfied now with nothing less than God. The pain is not bodily, but spiritual; though the body has its share in it. It is a caressing of love so sweet which now takes place between the soul and God, that I pray God of His goodness to make him experience it who may think that I am lying."

And from Irish legends:

"Saint Brigid was not the only saint to be associated with miracles of fire and light. Saint Flannan breathed on his fingers to make them emit light to help him work through the night. St. Ciaran prayed earnestly for warmth one cold winter when the monastery fire had been inadvertently put out, and a ball of fire fell into his lap. A great blaze of heavenly light was often seen around Saint Columcille, and a ball of light "like a comet" shone above his head and rose up to the heavens in a column as he celebrated Mass. "

And of course apart from Bapak Jesus, Mohammed, Mary and various Sufis ascended, we are told, to heaven.

If you are interested in these things I am sure you will find other examples.

Iljas

From Philip Quackenbush, May 11, 2009. Time 6:40

Well, Iljas,

I think it may be important to realize that at least some of what "Bapak" puts in his autobiography may be part of his imagination or declining memory. Can an ambitious railway clerk find an easier way to get rich? Hmmm... how about story-telling to the credulous? For one thing, the ball of light descending phenomenon is sort of the "mark of a guru" in Java. Without it, you get no "spiritual" points. Maybe I'm being too skeptical here, but over the years, what with one Subud sister who's a psychiatrist identifying "Bapak" as a probable congenital liar from his consistently saying one thing and doing another (specifically, his advice to most members to stay monogamous while having several women "on the side", apparently supplied by his then-wife, again considered the prerogative of a "guru" in Java by many, if not most, followers) and a Subud brother getting confirmation of much of that parenthetical info from a member of the Sekretariat. I certainly don't remember a lot of what's happened during my life at 73, and I seriously doubt that he did, either, since he supposedly wrote it several years before he died at 87 (86? : he's supposed to have been born at dawn and died at night on his birthday, so, 87, nu?). In any case, I'm currently reading Rue McLanahan's autobiography, "My First Five Husbands...And the Ones Who Got Away", and it's far more interesting (and far better written) than "Bapak's", IMO.

Peace, Philip

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 8:8

Thinking further on the status of Bapak's talks, I would like to suggest that the following two problems need recognition.

Firstly, we have an imbalance. For any other spiritual movement we would think it strange if prominence were not given to the writings of the founder. However, Subud is different, in that we claim the experience is evidence-based, should be led by the latihan, not by any teaching. Yet our web sites and publications hugely emphasise the talks of Bapak and Ibu Rahaju.

I don't think anyone would be put off coming across a Subud web site, if there were a section "talks by the founder" and also another section "the life of M.Subuh". In fact that would be an important part of transparency, people want to know what started a movement, where it is coming from, what sort of person the founder was - genuine or quack? But, if the latihan really is the real guide, then to be convincing in that claim, we need to give the prominence to witness from members of the effect of the latihan on them and on their lives, and I mean independent witness, not the "believe me, Brother, I have recieved it all exactly as Bapak says" type of witness.

The second problem is more insidious. In reply to David, Iljas says that we don't have to follow Bapak's world view. This is no doubt true for many - they are able to absorb the good bits of the talks and not be too bothered by the obvious culturally-biased stuff. At the same time, a lot of what we have done, and still do, in Subud, is hugely influenced by culture that we have absorbed uncritically from Bapak. Only recently, in a Subud publication, Osanna Vaughn says that if she is expressing an opinion that causes friction she is willing to let it go and not press it. Where does she get this idea from? There is no logical connection between the wrongness of an opinion and the amount of personal offence it is likely to cause. If anything history shows that the association is likely to be the other way round - vested interests don't like being threatened with the truth. This view is not a Western view, it's the kind of alien cultural attitude, that as David has pointed out in his writings, we are picking up directly from uncritical acceptance of the world view promoted in Bapak talks. I myself have also been able to write three articles, including one about to be published, in which I have gone into some detail about wrong thinking in Subud. It's surely no coincidence that Subud supplies such a rich source of material for articles of this kind, that stuff is coming from somewhere and I think we can trace it back directly to a world-view members have adopted from Bapak's talks. In other words, members have been taught to adopt a certain philosophy of life,

Sahlan

From Iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 9:19

Philip, enjoy your book.

Sahlan, I haven't read Ossana's article so it might be inappropriate for me to comment. But as I will cease participating in the forum after tonight, the end of a long weekend, and go back to examining theses and preparing courses I will offer a comment.

I think often it might be appropriate not to push an opinion. It depends on a number of factors, not necessarily on blindly following a worldview, Bapak's or anyone else's. It depends on how important the issue is on which one is expressing an opinion, it depends on the receptivity of the person to whom the opinion is being expressed. I mean if I get into a debate about religion or something and I realise the person I am debating with is really just enjoying the argument and not considering my opinions I will probably not push them. I will find a way to withdraw my participation. If someone is accusing my friend of something he or she didn't do I am likely to push my opinion on the matter, if they are lying about me I might just shrug it off and see it as an inner test. This is an Islamic position (I know Buddhists and Christians who would take a similar position) and this is part of my culture now not something alien. (Hazrat Ali said:"Respect other people's rights, forget your own." Or words to that effect. Actually, I do believe Bapak said something similar. You'll find this prominent in the writings of Sufis and I have to admit it's part of how I try to live my life. But it doesn't mean I accept being cheated. I do try to approach life pragmatically too. So I didn't get it simply from copying Bapak's worldview, it's a position I got from numerous sources and when I inwardly check about this it is a good thing to do. Now I don't know what Ossana's sources of inspiration are but I would guess not just Bapak's worldview ( and anyway as I have said time and again Bapak never recommended us to blindly and ignorantly follow his worldview). And I respect Ossana enough to think that she might actually inwardly feel she is authentically doing the right thing and not simply copying Bapak. Why blame Bapak's worldview for all our ills? It's irrational. All the others you allude to? I definitely won't comment on an anonymous mass.

Iljas

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 10:25

Iljas,

I probably should have made it clear that Osanna's article was in the context of her position as WSA chair and was about discussion and decision making in Subud. It wasn't referring to discussions on matters of personal belief.

I am not suggesting an opinion is wrong because the person is copying Bapak, because that would be implying everything Bapak said was wrong. I am saying that there is a danger of accepting Bapak's world-view uncritically, just because it comes from Bapak. And there is a particular danger in taking certain ideas out of their cultural context and transposing them into another culture. Like the idea of giving ways so as to be able to maintain harmony. Applied wrongly that makes Subud people feel as if any kind of criticism causing upset is inappropriate, even when the sincere intention of the criticiser is to make a bad situation good. I am sure that Osanna authentically feels she is doing the right thing, but I am saying that she is very wrong about that particular point, whatever her feeling about it happens to be.

For example, a few years ago another WSA person said to me that they believed that "any criticism of Subud was just showing that the person had issues to deal with in themselves" No doubt that person sincerely believed what they said. But it was nonsense nevertheless, dangerous nonsense because of its endorsement of the rationale of cults.

I observe some of the American Christian channels on Sky and note that the "proof" that is offered of Jesus's love is stuff like "I belived in the Lord and got a new car as a result". That tells me something about their brand of Christianity and that they have been indoctrinated into a world view that is at odds with commonsense. Similarly I observe sufficient coincidences of viewpoint in Subud that are at odds with the way the world works that leads me to suspect a kind of indoctrination, reinforced by peer pressure to conform. This is the way cults work and I don't want Subud to be a cult. With the individual path offered by the latihan it certainly doesn't need to be,

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 11:35

Hi Sahlan, I agree with a lot of what you say. But remember we are not tabula rasa when we come to Subud and I have long suspected that our pre-Subud life and character still influences us more at times than the latihan or Bapak's worldview. It certainly might make many of us misunderstand what Bapak says.

Most worldviews are not simply copies of someone else's but are constructed over time from a variety of sources and experiences. I was brought up as a Roman Catholic, left it at 18, practised Tibetan Buddhism with a guru and everything, joined Subud, left Tibetan Buddhism and eventually converted to Islam. I studied sociology and other social sciences undergraduate and graduate level at and this is the field within which I teach or try to!

My worldview is predominantly religious/spiritual but I have a strong pragmatic streak too preferring to solve social problems for example through social (broadly speaking) means. It is predominantly shaped by Islam and not Javanese cosmology although they share some perspectives. And I have deep character faults that prevent me at times from acting as I would like to that cause me to misunderstand things and other people, to hurt people's feelings, make wrong choices and decisions etc. Now I am not unique. Mightn't these kind of things be responsible for a lot of our problems and not Bapak's worldview or Javanese cosmology?

Iljas

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 12:11

Iljas,

I don't dispute what you say. Subud Vision is supposed to be about examining situations with an open mind and identifying all causes of problems, and hopefully trying to find ways of fixing those problems. People may feel that our editors or other contributors are exaggerating or over-emphasising certain problems. Well that's what the debate is supposed to be about and it has been refreshing to get, in yourself, a persistent challenger who can put forward decent counter-argument. We do get that on Subud Vision, but not as often as we would like.

If our pre-Subud life would cause us to misuderstand Bapak that can possibly be in two ways:

1) we bring a variety of distorted views. I would have thought that would cause us to then show a variety of Subud-flavoured distortions. Myself, I don't see evidence of that kind of variety.
2) There are already common ideas about what constitutes "being spiritual" and this accounts for a certain uniformity of approach in Subud which is not attributable to Bapak's talks. For example, in my "50/50 rule" article, I challenge an idea that is quite common in Subud that in a dispute both sides must share equal responsibility. My case is that there is nothing wrong with Bapak's advice on this matter, just the way we have interpreted it in practise, probably because the 50/50 approach has more of a "spiritual" appeal to it,

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 13:11

Sahlan, it's not perhaps that we bring a variety of distorted views but that we bring the capacity to endlessly distort what we read and hear to bring things down to the level of our understanding or to reflect what we're used to.

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 13:34

Iljas,

"we bring the capacity to endlessly distort what we read and hear to bring things down to the level of our understanding or to reflect what we're used to."

Yes, what you say is probably nearer the truth of the situation,

Sahlan

From Merin Nielsen, May 11, 2009. Time 14:16

Hi, Sahlan,

You wrote === My point is that the helpers who in the main have relied on Bapak's explanations don't have a problem explaining because they can say how Bapak explained you are storing up spiritual progress for the next life, so even if outer benefits are not obvious, it is part of the spiritual package to be patient and sincere and committed. If we take away the reliance on that teaching, what is our alternative explanation?

Hmm, thank-you for explaining the question so well. Now I'm worried that my response is liable to sound too facile. Basically, I don't think there's a major issue here because I suspect that a consensus, or at least a readily discernable divergence of views, would be likely to develop on this and related topics. I suspect that the community of latihan practitioners, without getting into heavy theoretical or doctrinal debates, would probably arrive at a pragmatic, roughly decipherable set of rules of thumb -- based on past experience and discussion -- in a forum that respects non-proselytisation. Maybe this is overly optimistic, but I'd be inclined to trust in a free-for-all and our ability (latihan connected) to assimilate the best of whatever falls out. I like what Michael says in this regard.

Hi, Iljas,

Are Bapak's talks teachings? Well, I haven't said they ARE teachings, but that they contain many teachings, and that they're treated as a source of teachings. The talks have many different components, including pragmatic advice about practising the latihan, advice about enterprises and advice about the Subud organisation. However, they do also contain many statements that are spiritual or religious in nature and that conflict with many people's spiritual or religious beliefs -- as per David's list. These statements were made as if they were true, and by any respectable English dictionary they constitute teachings.

Subud people often argue there are no teachings in the talks because nobody is actually required to believe the sort of statements mentioned above, and because many members indeed don't believe them. But this argument is a non-sequitur. Schoolchildren studying history, for instance, may or may not believe what they're taught, but their teacher is none the less teaching history. In parts of the USA, moreover, many science teachers are required by law to tell their students that there's no need to believe certain parts of the lesson content, yet many of the parents still complain about the teachings that these lessons contain.

As for the diminishment of Subud membership, it can't be attributed to any describable cause beyond all doubt, but for me the main cause is apparent beyond reasonable doubt -- anecdotally confirmed to the point of triviality.

e.g. Like latihan, yoga appears to benefit practitioners regardless of their belief systems. My next door neighbour is a yoga teacher who incorporates no exotic doctrine in her lessons, and always has a steady stream of students. This is despite an Ananda Marga community in the district offering yoga lessons for free -- which are taken up by very few people. My neighbour confirms that by far most students prefer their yoga ungarnished by spiritual teachings.

Merin

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 14:37

Merin,

I see what you are saying, but I don't think it quite addresses my question. We don't need to arrive at a rule of thumb, we already have one, i.e. 2 latihans a week and for many also, a third at home. My question relates not to arriving at good practise, but what happens if the current view of good practise is challenged? Less of a problem with challenging the applicant period because we can experiment and measure results in terms of applicants opened and what their committment to the latihan is after that. But take my specific example of someone who says they only want to latihan at the group once a week. Even if we set up an experiment where group A latihan once a week for a year, and group B twice a week, how would we measure results?
Bapak's explanation of the latihan storing up benefits for the after-life is, for those who believe it, a very compelling explanation. If we take away the ability of the helpers to promote Bapak's talks, what then what is our alternative explanation - I can't think of a practical expkanation that would be convincing. Of course, not everyone will go along with Bapak's explanation - I don't think this worries the helpers particularly - they probably think "more fool them", but at least at the moment they get the chance to get across explanantions to those that will accept them.

Incidentally, as you probably realise, I am not arguing against you, just pointing out some of the difficulties with the changes you are suggesting.

By the way, that example of the doctrine free yoga getting all the people is most interesting. It confirms to me what I have begun to suspect and write about - that the latihan packaged within a spiritual movement that you have to join is not ever going to be more than a very small minority interest in the modern world,

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 15:7

I'm dropping out at this point, I've enjoyed our conversations but I won't have as much free time as I've had over this long weekend here in Thailand. Moreover, I think we are repeating ourselves. I certainly am. I don't think I can say much more to move things forward. I still remain unconvinced of the basic premise about our problems as an organization being caused by our association with Bapak's worldview, Javanese cosmology or whatever. I'd like to suggest a couple of things:

1. Could David and Merin and others perform an experiment by starting a secular group or groups if they don't live near each other? This could be done with the blessing of WSA and some funds made available if required for secular literature or whatever. Perhaps they'd agree to present some kind of report in 2,3,4, or 5 years or whatever to World Congress. Anyone could attend the latihan in these groups but only those helpers who are comfortable with their secular perspective should perform helpers duties. Let's see how it grows and how many who join stay.

2. A lot of our conversation is taking place in a sort of information vacuum. We are as an organization somewhat obsessed by our condition (there are definitely things to be concerned about) but are we really worse off in terms of numbers, harmony etc compared to other similar groups? Wouldn't some perspective be good? Wouldn't it be good to know if there's something out there in the culture that is impacting all spiritual, self-development type groups? Would it be possible to arrange some kind of study. Krishnamurti's organization, Zen centres in California, Trungpa's groups at Boulder, Rajneesh's ashrams have had the kinds of problems that make ours seem like a picnic. Are there any academics in this field who might be hired to do some kind of study for us? Would it be useful?

I'm sorry I won't now be answering any questions if you have them about anything I've written. I wish you all well.

Iljas

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 15:55

Iljas,

In my opinion this has been one of the most valuable and timely conversations on the site. Thanks very much for the time you have spent on it,

Sahlan

From Philip Quackenbush, May 11, 2009. Time 19:26

Hi, guys (and gals),

It seems to me that the problems brought up in this discussion (if I can remember all the points made back to day one, whenever that was, are not mutually exclusive. I agree, for example, that Iljas's idea that the main problem with attracting new members and keeping them can't be simply traced back to the lectures of "Bapak" and his daughter (and occasionally, Vittachi and Sharif), but IMO, they are structural: i.e., what to do about the "helpers", when it's appropriate to "test" (if ever, these days), and whether anybody knows what the "latihan" is from a scientific viewpoint, so that those secularly inclined can accept it as useful.

I remember Vittachi recounting in one of his books "Bapak" telling him that rules are for children. It's obvious, if you read his early lectures that he regarded the members in the early days of the organization as children (psychologically speaking, i.e., from his psychology, or set of attitudes).

IMO, a few members may have overcome their earlier attitudes through life experiences, study of their own attitudes, and the "help" of the "latihan" as a means of "getting quiet" (i.e., going into alpha trance to relieve oneself of the "burden" of day-to-day difficulties) to sort them out as they arise during the moving (or non-moving) meditations.

The reason we had a guru (and for some still do) who kept claiming he wasn't a guru is because the psychology of many people (perhaps most members, considering their seeking for a "spiritual guide" when initially, at least, looking at Subud) demands it, and because the "latihan", while to some degree self-regulating, being a natural function of the body, may still require some oversight and guidance from "outside". Now that the guru is dead (and mini-gurus are still available for those who still can't get their own "guidance"), if the cult is not to gradually fade into the sunset, as its present course seems to indicate it is doing and will continue to do, it's perhaps finally time for those few who can "stand on their own two feet" to do so, bringing in to the organization everything they have learned from "outside" to aid in the necessary transformation for the organization's survival.

Despite all my years as a sort of hanger-on member, I don't claim to be one of those people, but the suggested experiment of forming a separate, semi-autonomous, secularly-minded group may have considerable merit. In fact, it may already have happened under the radar of the organization, since a number of drop-outs may have gotten together already to follow their own leanings, something which "Bapak" said the organization has no control over.

I personally have no such need, having a group nearby with a Subud house that I can pop into at any time, but there could be such a possibility both locally and worldwide. It would probably be preferable if such a "split" can be arranged so that it's not a split, the secular-minded people doing "latihan" as much as possible in the same facilities as the "divinely-inspired" for mutual support during a time of transition. That such a thing is possible is demonstrated by the fact that in the local group here (Seattle) there are now five group "latihans" a week, and if some of them (or even more) didn't require the presence of an official "helper", it would help to prevent "helper burnout".

Of course, "Bapak" claimed that the Subud "latihan" offered "proof" of the existence of "God" by the fact that it had spontaneous movement, but that "proof" is belied by the current scientific explanation of spontaneous movement being a result of the "ideomotor effect". I doubt that the two views are reconcilable, any more than the "secular" and "divine" members are at present, but it doesn't mean that the two groups can't hang together, rather than hang separately, as A. Lincoln (not a Ford), if I recall correctly, expressed it.

Peace, Philip

From Sahlan Diver, May 11, 2009. Time 19:53

Philip,

It seems to me that the more secular members have never had major problems either latihaning with or hanging out with the more religious members. Neither do Jews have problems latihaning with Muslims, and so on. We are not seeking separate refuges for different belief systems. What is being asked for is a presentation of the latihan to outsiders, potential applicants and to existing members that does not appear to be coercing members into giving special value to a particular world-view.

If some members want to create a new version of Subud where there is officially a teaching that Bapak was some kind of prophet and that his talks should be treated as holy writings that are obligatory or strongly advised reading for the practise of the latihan, then they can of course create a new Subud. What is unsatisfactory is a situation where we say to do the latihan you don't have to believe anything but within our culture and our interfaces to the outside world are all sorts of behaviours and statements to the contrary. This lack of clarity both creates internal tensions and surely cannot assist our wish to be identified as an open and transparent movement without any cult-like bad features.

We need to face up to this issue and identify clearly what Subud is. Is it truly a spiritual experience free of any teaching, that happens to maintain archives and libraries of the founder's talks, for those that want to access them, or is it a spiritual movement whose primary activity is free of instruction, but which nevertheless strongly recommends its members to also take additional instruction from the founder's talks,

Sahlan

From Philip Quackenbush, May 11, 2009. Time 20:3

Hi, Sahlan,

A simple solution might be to have a "secular" virgin of the handouts usually given to applicants as well as the "divine" one and, in groups large enough, have "secular" "helpers" as well as the "divine" ones, but having experienced the almost-palpable animosity from one "divine" "helper" who objected to my becoming an active "helper" again because I didn't follow the Party Line and bow down in fealty to "Bapak," I doubt that it's structurally possible, given the current makeup of the "helpers" group, which, like a police union, protects its own perhaps more than protecting the public.

Peace, Philip

From Michael, May 11, 2009. Time 23:16

Merin wrote, paraphrasing Bapak: "...you are storing up spiritual progress for the next life, so even if outer benefits are not obvious, it is part of the spiritual package to be patient and sincere and committed. If we take away the reliance on that teaching, what is our alternative explanation?"

Indeed. I came to Subud with that belief a priori. When I became an agnostic and realized that there was no foundation to the belief I had a cosmological crisis from which I have not recovered. I am just learning to be content with not knowing why I do the latihan in those terms. Not being able to justify doing the latihan in those terms makes talking to newbies difficult.

From Michael, May 11, 2009. Time 23:22

Sahlan wrote: "If some members want to create a new version of Subud where there is officially a teaching that Bapak was some kind of prophet and that his talks should be treated as holy writings that are obligatory or strongly advised reading for the practise of the latihan, then they can of course create a new Subud."

That would create a schism. What happened to David's 'petals'? Wouldn't those people form common, self-organizing interest group using the neutral organization's latihaning facilities? They could then persuade others to join their clutch as much as they wanted to.

From Philip Quackenbush, May 12, 2009. Time 0:5

Not to worry, Michael,

If there's another life (or continuity of consciousness without a physical body [the same, if you think about it a bit], which there's plenty of evidence for from OOBE's, NDE studies and the nature of the universe according to quantum physics), then everything you do, including "latihan", would probably have some quantifiable effect on that "other life". Whether it would be a positive or negative effect is up to you (or the newbie) to subjectively decide.

Peace, Philip

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