Subud Vision - Discussion

Merin Nielsen - Genuinely Open

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From Iljas Baker, May 10, 2009. Time 1:25

Hi Merin,

Have to say you didn't sound convincing. You've taken something, portrayed it as an enormous obstacle to bringing people to the latihan and ultimately shown it to be based on no more than some impressions derived from some people you have spoken to (perhaps in one small area of Australia), some family members etc.

I might be forgiven for thinking that this connecting Bapa's talks, vocabulary and the respect we (conservatives?) give to Bapak with the decline in Subud numbers is basically led, if not engineered, by some members who might themselves be uncomfortable with these things and try to characterize it as a bigger problem than it is in order to effect change they would like to see.

I have no doubt that some people are put off by the things mentioned but probably some are attracted to them. People do join sects and apparently wearing special exotic clothes doesn't faze them. Trungpa Rinpoche used to castigate his followers for their spiritual materialism, i.e. collecting 'spiritual' objects to feel more spiritual. Most Buddhist, even zen, magazines in the West have a veritable cornucopia of exotic things on sale to a growing faithful. There are still lots of popular gurus. Many overtly religious groups are growing. Why does our lite exotic, spiritual culture by comparison drive hordes away? Perhaps it doesn't.

The point I am making is that people are put off by these things just as people are attracted to these things just as people learn to put them in perspective and approach them intelligently.

I am not saying that I am not worried that there is a declining membership, that so many leave Subud and not a few of these probably don't do latihan. I even wonder if I will have a group to latihan with when I'm seventy! I am not saying that we don't need to or shouldn't make changes - we do and we should. But I think the particular argument you are making is specious.Do you think there might be other reasons or is this the only case you want to make?

Iljas

From Iljas Baker, May 10, 2009. Time 2:36

Hi Sahlan,

Yes an independent dispute resolution mechanism would be fine. I thought the regional helpers were supposed to get involved if things couldn't be resolved at group level.

But without love and respect, would people accept the outcome of independent arbitration and move on?

I wish you success in sorting out all the ideas that have been contributed. I have great confidence in you.

Iljas

From Sahlan Diver, May 10, 2009. Time 9:11

Iljas,

The problem as I see it is we can try new procedures like a dispute resolution procedure and hopefully something like that will help improve many situations, but what do we do to add or increase love and respect, apart from doing the latihan, which we are doing anyway? Subud isn't like a religion that has priests who can give sermons. The nearest we have to a scripture is Bapak's talks, where of course he does talk about love and respect, but again we are not like a religion where reading the scripture is a compulsory part of the experience. Did you have any particular strategies in mind for this?

Apart from (1) procedures (2) improving attitudes, there is a third area where I believe we need change and that is realising where our behaviours are determined by underlying attitudes that we haven't got quite right.

I can give an example that illustrates what both of us are saying. There was a long-term dispute and a member who had not been well treated, though they may have been, on their own admission, partly responsible for the problem. They hadn't attended the group for years. An opportunity came to resolve the dispute at a gathering, but it was scuppered by one helper who, as soon as they saw the person, behaved in an extremely aggressive and abusive manner. Clearly this helper was an example of the point you have made, i.e. what use is a procedure if one or more of the people involved lacks love and respect.

On the other hand, we do function as an organisation and helpers belong to "helpers groups" so there is a collective responsibility. This responsibility is not often exercised. Wny not? Possibly because the local helpers don't want to be seen putting themselves in a position of superiority over a fellow helper and calling them to account. I know of lots of instances, some where I have been the victim myself, where a helper or committe member persistently behaves out of line, causing much long-term disruption, with members leaving, and so on, but their behaviour is always tolerated, never challenged.

Simon Monbaron told me a story of an incident he had witnessed where there was a bad dispute in a group and a member was no longer coming to latihan as a result. Something like that - I can't remember the exact detail. Bapak was asked about it and he said there was no doubt that this member had been treated very badly and they should apologise to him. No "forgive and forget", "learn to love each other". Basically, one side was wrong and that was that! Simon said that Bapak's reply was so unexpected that he has never forgotten the occasion.

Sahlan

From Sahlan Diver, May 10, 2009. Time 9:41

Merin and Iljas,

I am going to add a comment to your conversation.

The proportion of the population who join spiritual/esoteric movements is quite small, is it not? So, although Iljas may be right that the way we present Bapak's teachings alongside the latihan is quite 'lightweight' compared to other movements, it may nevertheless sufficiently identify us as a movement with a belief system that, like all other movements with belief systems that are not mainstream religions, we are likely to attract only a very small particular proportion of the population.

Putting aside for the moment the discussion of the importance of Bapak's talks to the practise of the latihan, let's imagine we packaged the latihan as a valuable experience free of any teaching, and free of any religios association. I know we are already free of the latter in the sense that doing the latihan is apparently not problematic for members who are devout Christians, Muslims and so on, but I mean completely free in the sense that what we say about the latihan requires no identification with any set of assumptions about the spiritual. This would surely create something that would be much more amenable to the majority of people.

Coming back to the point Iljas originally made, I do think it poses some interesting questions. For example, the reasons why we don't do ten latihans a week are obvious, but if we take away Bapak's explanations where he says the latihan is not just having an effect on us in this life, but is preparing us for the next life, then how do you justify to a new member the importance of doing at least two latihans a week. We can't point to members and say - look at A, he has been doing the latihan diligently for years and he is so much further on than B who only comes occasionaly -- sometimes those long term enthusiasts are the ones most obviously needing the purification! So we can't make a direct link between latihans done and changes achieved. But those of us who have accepted most or a lot of what Bapak says would have no problem here - the justification is obvious, you are preparing for the next life, as well as this.

From Iljas Baker, May 10, 2009. Time 10:57

Sahlan and Merin,

I have no doubt that sometimes we just have to stand up to wrongdoing in our groups but in a certain way, I suppose, you know what I mean.

OK so we portray the latihan as nothing to do with the present spiritual framework. You can't just say that will lead to it being amenable to many more people. Are the vast majority really interested in transformation? Are they really looking for something? You have to tell them something, offer some framework or context. What will you tell them, the vast majority? You'll lose weight, get fitter, solve all your psychological problems, or just that "take my word for it your life will improve" etc. Will the vast majority come running? I don't think so.

Subud is a small store in a vast mall of spiritual and self-development outlets that only some people visit. Should we position the latihan along psychological development lines rather than spiritual development lines. The main problem I think is that our product, the latihan, is a hard sell. And we don't really get in people's faces with our sales techniques. And I'm not suggesting we should.

But let's look at our product. To be honest you would (or would you?) have to say:

1. You are never in control of it, you can't direct it to specific areas of your life you think need to be changed. You have to give up being in control - very different from how we usually live our lives. And giving up is really really hard.

2. You can only do it twice a week - you can't decide to intensify it to get better results. There's no latihan retreats with 16 hour latihans. You can't do it twice a day or five times a week for better quicker results.

3. You can't add to it to make it change you faster or more thoroughly (or is that part of our false dogma about mixing?)

4. There's no predictable series of steps to go through, somehow your life will get better

5. You may not feel any movement or any sort of action for while, perhaps weeks, months but you should keep doing latihan with your group twice a week

6. No one knows how long it will take to make you feel its benefits, it could be years, decades and the things you think need to be changed may not be the ones that get changed first or even at all

7. It's really wonderful, but most people eventually leave it for one reason or another. Many of them don't find what they are looking for or hoping for but I did so that's why i want you to have the opportunity I had.

8. There's no teachings you can study and memorise to give you a sense of accomplishment or being in control. There's just the latihan.

I won't continue but I think you get the idea.

If I were "selling" meditation or some other technique I would probably (and many of their proponents do) say the exact opposite (within reason) of these eight points.

From David W, May 10, 2009. Time 11:21

Hi Iljas

I agree that people cannot live without culture. I also agree that people can read the websites. However, it's not ANY cultural accretion that we're talking about here, it's specifically an alien one.

As a Westerner, I find it strange to be lectured on ancestral purification and Sufistic Islam. These are not part of my culture, and I have no need of them. As an educated Westerner, I find it off-putting to have people say "there is no teaching", and then try to load me up with something they were clearly taught, and clearly comes from another culture.

That this is going to happen is not apparent from the websites, where the content of the Talks is carefully and deliberately hidden. It's not just the fact of having a guru which is off-putting. I have Buddhist friends who have a guru: Sogyam Rinpoche. The contents of his thought are not only not off-putting, but are published openly in a best-selling book: The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying.

It's the specific content of the talks which I find off-putting. I do not want my daughters taught the theories of sex contained therein, or the hierarchies of soul-content, or the any of others that come from Java's Hinduistic caste system. And I don't think you need to know their origin to find it awful to be taught that outside someone may look like a human being, but inside they may have the soul of a stone. These are hardly the teachings of Christ or the Buddha, or Mohammed.

In one of my papers on the subudvision site, I list the contents of a book of talks as advertised "to members only". Here's what's promoted in secret, hidden from public view:

"The story of the seven heavens and the angels, and why God created God’s will within human beings • Why people are unable to find one path to God for all humankind • … • Why God created angels • How the will of God was placed in all things—including human beings—and what stops you from being able to experience it • How the one human race became divided into many, and the need to reunite them within ourselves • The reason why God has given us the latihan now • How the form of God’s gift changed in keeping with the ages • What the letter alif and the sign of the cross symbolise • Where Islam and Christianity came from • … • How what happens as a baby grows up affects that person’s belief in God, heaven and the angels • The reason why, in the latihan, we learn everything again • How some stones, plants and animals are considered to be of more value than human beings • … • How not to be affected by demons • … • Why human beings were placed in this world, and what happens when they leave it • The story of God creating the seven heavens, the angels, and why God placed God’s will in everything He created • What is necessary in order to reach God • How you will know when you have reached the level of having a genuine human soul • How you can know if counsel is coming from God • … • The story of the angels and why God’s will was manifested in human beings • … • Why the angels could not go with the prophets on their journey to God • How surrendering, being cleaned by and following God’s will affects a person’s reaction to illness and sadness • Why the latihan is easy to receive, and why it is wrong to do strange things to try to get to know God’s power • What the latihan will give us in our work • Why people sing in church and the mosque."

Couple this internal reality, with the outer claims that there "is no guru", "are no teachings," "compatible with all religions." The difference between the secretive reality and the plausible packaging is so vast that I can only call it deceptive.

Many "conservatives" seem to feel that it's up to someone to convince them to change their behaviour. I feel that the the shoe is on the other foot. This duplicity, and the deliberate hiding of bizarre and in many cases just-plain-awful anachronistic supernaturalism are what requires explanation.

I find such behaviour "unconvincing". I think the onus is on you to explain yourself. I think that most "conservatives" know that such behaviour is not fit for light of day, and therefore are publicly silent on the real content of Subud literature.

The solution proposed by many authors in subudvision is the simple "separation of church and state" which to date is the most widely practiced and proven way of allowing different beliefs to coexists within one polity. Javanese culture, on the other hand, has a history riddle with inter-religious mass murder. It is not a good model to draw from.

I'm content with my own culture, and the many deep sources of spiritual wisdom I can draw upon, if I so wish. I'm content with democratic governance, modern biology, cosmology and cosmogeny. I don't need to seek alternative forms, and certainly don't think that better forms are to be found in rural Java. Even if they are, that's a proposition that has nothing to do with Subud.

So: why can't we have our latihan served up without the Javanese worldview? And if you think it's so attractive, why don't you serve it up at your university, warts and all, hiding nothing, as your beliefs, and see how people react?

Best

David

From Sahlan Diver, May 10, 2009. Time 11:25

Iljas,

Great check-list! And of questions that do need answers.

Presenting the latihan as a non-spiritual exercise is one extreme, presenting it in the context of Subud as a religion where you do the latihan but are nevertheless expected to subscribe to certain beliefs is the other extreme. Subud at the moment seemd to me to be below that extreme, but not in the middle position. i.e. we say that you don't have to believe anything, but at the same time we are strongly advising people that to get the full benefit from the latihan they need to read Bapak's explanations.

What about somewhere in the middle? It IS a spiritual experience, but beliefs are NOT required. How would we justify it as a spiritual experience without bringing Bapak's talks into the picture and asking people to accept some of his statements on faith? Isn't your checklist just as awkward for someone trying to explain Subud as having spiritual benefits, as it is for someone trying to explain the benefits without reference to the spiritual?

Sahlan

From Merin Nielsen, May 10, 2009. Time 12:7

Hi, Iljas,

You wrote === You've taken something, portrayed it as an enormous obstacle to bringing people to the latihan and ultimately shown it to be based on no more than some impressions derived from some people you have spoken to (perhaps in one small area of Australia), some family members etc.

Have to say you're being disingenuous. The problem I describe is amply substantiated by the world around us, and in terms of the main reason for Subud's decline, it's the most realistic account. I might be forgiven for thinking you are up to rhetorical gamesmanship. You might indeed say my argument has been engineered in order to effect changes that I'd like to see, but I'm not at all uncomfortable with giving respect to Bapak -- merely with the organisation doing so officially. The changes I'd like to see represent making the latihan more available to more human beings.

You wrote === Do you think there might be other reasons or is this the only case you want to make?

I have no other case to make and none is needed. Here are some of the central points of my article again, in summary.

Bapak's talks contain many spiritual teachings. They are promoted and endorsed by the organisation in obvious ways such that the spiritual teachings form a perspective which dominates all other spiritual perspectives throughout the Subud community, and it is celebrated as such. Hence it is effectively the belief system of Subud, and in various ways, big or small, it conflicts with most people's personal belief systems. Because Subud has such a belief system, many people consider Subud incompatible with their own viewpoints. As a result, quite unsurprisingly, they can't consider associating directly with Subud.

Many people who would find latihan beneficial never try it because the caretaking organisation is Subud, which has the characteristic incompatibility described above. So while we're fond of saying that Subud makes the latihan available to everyone, this is belied by the present situation. Yet there is no need for the organisation to promote Bapak's talks, and thereby have a Subud belief system, and thereby alienate people who have their own beliefs. As private individuals, Subud members could promote Bapak to whomever they please without roping the organisation into this process. Then we would not be excluding all those who find an organisational belief system problematic.

Subud could be 'officially secular' without diminishing the privilege of members so-inclined to respect and celebrate Bapak as a spiritual guide among themselves. New members, with whom the Bapak fans happen to associate, might well also find an affinity with Bapak. This all sounds fine to me, providing that the orientation of the organisation is confined to providing practical assistance and facilities for practising the latihan. The belief systems of latihan practitioners is not relevant here. What matters is that a potentially useful practice is currently not being made available to the extent that it could be.

You wrote === Are the vast majority really interested in transformation? Are they really looking for something? You have to tell them something, offer some framework or context.

Each of us can tell them what we like. There's no good reason why it should be all the same framework, or any particular framework. Especially, there's no good reason why it should be the Bapak framework.

Hi, Sahlan,

You wrote === if we take away Bapak's explanations where he says the latihan is not just having an effect on us in this life, but is preparing us for the next life, then how do you justify to a new member the importance of doing at least two latihans a week?

I don't get your question. Some of us feel most comfortable with two latihans a week, some with more, some with less, and some with far less. Each person can assess for himself or herself what rate seems to provide the most benefit, presumably taking into consideration what they hear from more experienced practitioners. Sorry, but if I'm off track, perhaps you could put it differently?

Merin

From Sahlan Diver, May 10, 2009. Time 12:46

Merin,

I suppose what I am thinking round is a point you make in a new article of yours that we are soon to publish, where you say that we don't need Bapak's explanations like we might once have needed them because we now have 50 years experience of practising the latihan to guide us. What I am saying is some of what we do is not just guided by experience, and that we have done it precisely because Bapak told us to do it like that and provided an explanation of why we should. I gave the 2 latihans a week example. We all know why 10 a week would be bad because of the experience of what we know happens when someone does too much latihan. But less easy is to say why we should do two a week instead of, say, one a week, or one a month.

Let's imagine for example a more secular Subud like you are proposing. A new member is opened and we tell them that it is a good idea to latihan with the group 2 times a week. They reply that when they did yoga once they only went to their class on Mondays, and similarly their French evening classes are only once a week on Wednesdays, why do they need to devote two evenings a week to latihan. Where is our experience to rely on to persuade the member this is the right frequency? As I said we can't produce scientific specimens in the form of member A who has done more frequent latihans than B and is obviously thereby much more benefitted. My point is that the helpers who in the main have relied on Bapak's explanations don't have a problem explaining because they can say how Bapak explained you are storing up spiritual progress for the next life, so even if outer benefits are not obvious, it is part of the spiritual package to be patient and sincere and committed. If we take away the reliance on that teaching, what is our alternative explanation? This is important because, supposing in some places your argument gets through and people say, yes it is a good idea to maintain a separateness from any teachings, those same people might be less happy with the idea that now they have no means of advising a new member why they should do on average 2 latihans a week instead of 1 or less,

Sahlan

From Iljas Baker, May 10, 2009. Time 15:9

Merin first: You still just say that the cause is obvious . To me it's not obvious and neither is the problem amply demonstrated to me by the world around us nor is it to me the most realistic account. It's a pity you treat my skepticism as insincerity. I have no secret agenda and am open in my support of a significant role in the Subud organization for making sure Bapak's talks get translated published and disseminated. To me it is obvious they are not teachings and you don't have to believe any of the stuff that David identifies to get some benefit from the latihan.

Merin you have simply restated your argument and it still doesn't convince me. The world is waiting for the latihan if only the Subud organization would get out of the way. I don't think so. Some (I don't know how many) people are waiting for the latihan, some (again I don't know how many) are probably not, even if you saw all of the reforms you wish implemented.

David,

From Sahlan Diver, May 10, 2009. Time 15:19

Iljas,

A request for clarification:

You say:
"you don't have to believe any of the stuff that David identifies to get some benefit from the latihan"

Does this mean you believe:

"you do have to believe some of the stuff that David identifies to get full benefit from the latihan" ?

or perhaps what you think would be more accurately put as:

"you do have to believe some of the stuff that Bapak talks about to get full benefit from the latihan" ?

Sahlan

From Sahlan Diver, May 10, 2009. Time 15:28

Iljas,

Sorry, I think I over-simplified in my last post. Let me see if you agree with this: Merin thinks that the association of the latihan with an apparent teaching is a significant obstacle to numbers of people wanting to practise the latihan. He proposes a secular presentation. You are not convinced (a) that this will significantly increase the numbers interested, but (b) even if it did, your concern would be that without the organisation putting emphasis on Bapak's advice they would not have sufficient reasons or motivation for the long-term diligent practise of the latihan that is necessary. Result: we don't significantly win on numbers, either way. Does that sum things up more accurately?

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 1:39

Yes, you got it right Sahlan. I was trying also to say that it's not required to believe all the esoteric Javanese stuff that so troubles David and Merin to benefit from the latihan. Personally I find it interesting but I don't believe it is important for most of us in the way that Bapak's guidance on the latihan is. But I wouldn't want to edit it all out and just present my or anyone else's version of what is important. I will say more about that in my message to David soon.

Iljas

From iljas Baker, May 11, 2009. Time 2:55

Hi David,

To be honest I don't really know how to reply to you. I am not sure why that is the case. Perhaps it's because you are very very certain about the positions you take and express very strong opinions about them. I don't see us getting much joy out of debating these things. You seem to have a scientific worldview. I have a spiritual/religious worldview. I don't feel anyone is pushing (including Bapak) the Javanese worldview on us or lecturing us about it. I don't think it really plays a major role in Subud life even if it is there. If you gave a test on Javanese cosmology most Subud people would probably fail spectacularly. I think Bapak's guidance on the latihan is what really moves most of us and to me is more attractive than the kind of unleavened explanation you created as an example of a secular presentation. For me the latihan is about developing my soul, the kind of psychological things you referred to are really a definite boon for those of us who do the latihan but they are for me not the main course. Furthermore, I've never been troubled by the Javanese cosmology. I don't feel I need to protect my children from Bapak's explanations of sex or his pronouncement that a person can have the soul of a stone. I might be more inclined to warn them to be careful about allowing scientists to acquire power or about eugenics making a comeback or euthanasia or nuclear power or...

I guess a major problem is I am just not convinced that the presence of the Javanese cosmology or the promotion of Bapak's talks is the cause of a declining Subud membership. I can't see your secular explanations being a magnet for hordes of new members. And even if members do join you'll have trouble keeping them because of the kind of things I enumerated in an earlier post. I would guess lots of other techniques would be more attractive.

Rather than Bapak's talks, you seem to be bolstering your secular explanations by the latest scientific bestsellers. The neurosciences are still relatively new, lots of stuff comes and goes. I'd be wary of giving any particular set of ideas in this field too much importance in your scheme. I'd guess the books you mentioned will be forgotten, perhaps dismissed as immature thinking in 5 years time. There are even some neuroscientists that take the position that religion is hard wired into the brain. But I am not qualified to speak of these things and they don't really do it for me what with my religious/spiritual worldview.

My university recently established, with the assistance of California Institute of Integral Studies, a Centre for Contemplative Education. They've been promoting the development of the centre's staff through the use of the enneagram. So I think I could arrange for Salamah to come and give a lecture on Javanese cosmology and its application to various fields and they would love it. I wouldn't love it because it doesn't really appeal to me as a system I want to study and apply.

Iljas

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