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Subud Vision - Discussion

Merin Nielsen - Genuinely Open

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From Sahlan Diver, May 12, 2009. Time 8:42

Michael,

I don't see the petals idea being a workable solution for this problem. The helpers work as one unit and, taking the real-life example that Philip gave, you are going to have helpers in active opposition with each other, with one helper strongly wishing to push Bapak's advice and another strongly wishing to avoid it. So you don't have an overt schism, but you have a fundamental internal matter unresolved, which is almost as bad. If this were just a matter of belief it wouldn't be a problem. Subud has accomodated lots of different beliefs. It's that this goes beyond what people privately believe and determines their policy towards other members, towards applicants, and also the way Subud presents itself to the world,

Sahlan


From Sahlan Diver, May 12, 2009. Time 19:54

Is that a teaching, or what?

Presumably those members who give a great deal of emphasis to Bapak's talks would give a similar degree of emphasis to Ibu Rahaju's. Fair enough, but the statements within such talks seem to be at odds with the assertions that there is no teaching going on, that it doesn't matter whether we believe or listen any of it.

I quote a recent talk:

"we know and we have experienced that we are one of God's creatures who have received a gift from God - the spiritual training of Subud" "with the latihan we are taken back... to the time of the prophets when the contact between human beings and the One who created them was extremely close" "And what led us far from God was our hearts and minds - we have been preoccupied by the life forces of the world" "We can read and hear in Baoak's talks how much Amlighty God loves humankind" "God placed God's will in every individual human being as well as in all the other natures of God" "God did that because God realised at the time that if human beings were to return to God they would have to pass through all the heavens" "If you read Bapak's talks you would know this" etc etc


From Merin Nielsen, May 13, 2009. Time 6:25

Hi, Sahlan,

You wrote === My question relates not to arriving at good practise, but what happens if the current view of good practise is challenged? ... take my specific example of someone who says they only want to latihan at the group once a week. ... Bapak's explanation of the latihan storing up benefits for the after-life is, for those who believe it, a very compelling explanation. If we take away the ability of the helpers to promote Bapak's talks, what then what is our alternative explanation - I can't think of a practical expkanation that would be convincing.

Okay then, if I get what you're asking -- is it problematic to have no official theory for backing up bits of advice? Well, a piece advice could only be based on either of two things -- some theoretical background that the respective advisor happens to have adopted, or simply what has felt good to the advisor over time. In any case, newcomers to latihan may confront a range of different recommendations. But my response is much the same as before -- we're all obliged to muddle our way through anyway, and it's probably better for advice to emerge from no generally accepted or dominant theoretical background, so let muddling proceed -- at least it'll stimulate conversation!

Merin


From Bronte, July 11, 2009. Time 6:24

I read a lot of theories here and elsewhere about Bapak's so-called explanations, and his teachings.

I think the man who said to me the other day "I do latihan. It works." maybe just tapping into the calming effect, as I do still.
The thing is, for me, that Bapak's explanations ultimately do not matter. Neither do the explanations, or limitations, given by helpers. It just matters, at least to me, that some of the things that were explained before they happened did eventually happen. Most things did not. My religious beliefs were neither confirmed nor disproved by Subud. My life's problems and joys were neither given to me nor removed from me by Subud. They may have been made much worse because I allowed myself to be upset by Subud people, but that is a different matter too.
But I found, and still find, the latihan has a reality of it's own, apart from the rest of my life, and it still connects me with all of my life. It is an ongoing process of self awareness, if not also religious development, which can be and is a separate thing. As so many people have said and will say "latihan first, explanations later. Beliefs are a substitute for knowledge." Does anyone reading this recall the source of my quote "The taste is unmistakable."? We need to be open to our own humanity, and God's blessings if we believe in them/Him, and I do. And we need to be wary of other people's controlling actions or words. As that terribly damning (of Subud) book is titled "call no MAN master."


From marcus Bolt, July 13, 2009. Time 9:4

Hi Bronte

What you write is very close to my own current understanding of the latihan. And the shift away from the Subud credo and my vestige of a Christian God concept is all part of the latihan process for me. As Buddhists say, 'If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.', which I take to mean, anytime you think you've got it sussed, that you've arrived, the process stops and you're stuck. And as someone else put it succinctly, 'The problem with Subud is some people forget to leave' (and I guess you could include every religious, spiritual and psychotherapeutic movement in that statement).
Strangely, I still enjoy reading Bapak's talks. Not so much for the 'guidance' (there isn't much of practical use, really) but to get a grip on how Subud, the organisation, developed and lost its way. To be honest, the fault lies mainly with the members who, mostly, seem so desperate to create an 'ultimate saviour' to entrust their lives to. On the other hand, Bapak did little to stamp this out. Maybe he thought we'd all come to our senses through the latihan. Unfortunately, to paraphrase what you wrote, the latihan doesn't necessarily do what it says on the tin.


From Andrew Hall, July 15, 2009. Time 21:9

Hi Bronte,

I was deeply touched when I read your description of the latihan "..a reality of its own, apart from the rest of my life, and it still connects me with all of my life... an ongoing process of self-awareness, if not also religious development, which can be and is a separate thing. As so many people have said and will say 'latihan first, explanations later. Beliefs are a substitute for knowledge.'"

I have been working out in my own mind for some time how I feel religious beliefs are misunderstood and abused.

(A friend told me once that when the Buddha was enlightened that 10-thousand Universes shuddered. Take a second and try and imagine what that EVENT must be like. It gives me the shivers.)

I wonder if a credible case can be made for religion that people found they can use imaginative iconography to access the transcendent or religious experience. I certainly tend to see my own hunger for transcendence in religious terms and wonder why I feel drawn to do so.

Although I feel personally attracted to and comfortable with using religious terms, I justify it as a conscious choice and understand that it is always a metaphor and can never be anything more than a metaphor, just as any other idea or symbol, even the idea of God, can only be a metaphor. The mystical experience happens elsewhere in the brain.

Using another terminology, I suggest there is a human need and utility in having a fetish.

Is not religious devotion a time-tested religious technology for experiencing the mystical union? The experience of transcendence is powerful medicine and humankind has created mythic explanations and religious claims that are just as potent ideas for the imagination.

I think the challenge for people with my background is to not feel ashamed to practice religious devotion, yet not feel compromised by or wedded to any religious beliefs, or any specific religious belief.

My experience of Subud is certainly helping make it possible for me to do so.
Take care,
Andrew Hall
Ottawa, Canada

We need to be open to our own humanity, and God's blessings if we believe in them/Him, and I do. And we need to be wary of other people's controlling actions or words.


From Michael, July 16, 2009. Time 0:49

Andrew: "...latihan...it still connects me with all of my life... an ongoing process of self-awareness..."

That about sums it up


From Philip Quackenbush, July 17, 2009. Time 1:17

Well, of course, that's also true for lots of people doing various other forms of meditation. Maybe it's time for the cult to stop denying that the "latihan" is a type of meditation. The fact that it's (partially, largely, or wholly) spontaneous doesn't change that. After all, 99+% of what happens in our own bodies we're not consciously aware of (if our conscious awareness were to take over all those tasks, we'd probably die within minutes, if not days, of nothing less than sheer incompetence), and much of that is spontaneous, so there's nothing particularly unique about the "latihan" in that respect.

Peace, Philip


From Bronte, July 18, 2009. Time 10:2

Philip.
Thank God that we do not hve to develop an awarenes of how our body works and then take charge of it with our concious mind and heart! Gee, my intestines can do their stuff without letting me know anything about it, though they don't at times, like today when I have to dine-out with good friends twice in one day. Not a frequent occurrence for me, unlike some people. How did Bapak ever manage it?
Seriously, I still believe that latihan is meant to become more and more an "alive" thing for us, developing forever. Hence my dismissl of all suggestions that there is a time to walk away. If meditation is the same, or prayer is the same, then I wish we could hear more about it in this forum. I have done a lot ( for me) of one, and little of the other.
And now we see some fierce claims from an ex-member that Subud, Bapak, latihan all are lies. Thats' what I call "throwing down the gauntlet." Really, to what are we open? An awakening of our self-hood? To Our God (Not Jesus's God according to Gaby on the a-s site), or are we training in a fun but sickening version of self delusion, and mental fantasy, so that, like the lady I know who meditates hours a day, we can want to leave this reality as soon as possible, because "It just ain't nice."???
Love
Bronte


From Philip Quackenbush, July 19, 2009. Time 8:3

Well, Bronte,

I hope that I'm not the only one on this forum who recognizes the congruence of the "latihan" with other forms of meditation in terms of not only what it seems to be, but also in terms of the eventual results. Even Ibu Rahayu has said that (in her terms, not mine) that there are other "ways to God", but the "latihan" is (in her opinion, anyway) the easiest way. I won't go to the extreme of saying that it's all a lie, which some might, but certainly there's plenty of items of confusion and falsehood present in the cult as it stands, IMO, and claiming that there's anything special about it, when the Chinese, the Jews, the Hindus, the Daoists and so-called Christians (who are they, anyway? I'm one and you're not, right?) have been practicing some form or other of it for millenia, and Muslims for centuries, is pure folly, IMO.

Peace, Philip


From Philip Quackenbush, July 19, 2009. Time 8:27

I almost forgot, Bronte,

Many SUBmembers, just like the woman you mention, have run to the "latihan" to "get away from it all" (mea culpa), so it's just another form of meditation that has that possible intent. Whatever form of meditation you engage in, whether programmed (like watching the breath) or spontaneous (like the "latihan" or "free taiji", the intent is best set, IMO, not on solving your problems or getting away from them, but as a tool for clarifying and molding one's thoughts and leading the preferred sort of life that results from those thoughts. "All that you are is a result of what you have thought" - - - Da Boo Da.

Peace, Philip


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