Subud Vision - Discussion

Marius Kahan - Subud and the Art of Automobile Maintenance

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From Merin Nielsen, September 20, 2010. Time 13:47

Some people say the story of Christ and the loaves & fishes is metaphorical. Others say it's about an actual miracle. One morning earlier this year, I was at a table with three other Subud blokes, one of whom started telling us about the apparent miracle on some special occasion in Cilandak (Bapak's birthday?) when there were too many guests for the amount of rice being prepared, but no matter how much was taken from the pot, the amount of rice didn't diminish. I can't recall the details, but it's one of those tales that does the rounds. Anyway, I'd heard it before, but wouldn't have minded hearing it again except for the way it seemed to be introduced -- with a sense of awe. I could have let it slide, but it felt dishonest to let this sort of fundamentalism propagate, so I spoke up in a scoffing way. Sorry, but I had to scoff that the story resembled the miracle of the loaves & fishes, and really should not be taken as literally true. Within a minute, I was defending myself against accusations of intolerance and rudeness. What happened? I wasn't willing to accept that stuff as normative in Subud, which amounted to me rocking the boat.

From Sahlan Diver, September 20, 2010. Time 15:17

I did an Internet search on "rice pot miracle", Unfortunately there is a brand of pot known as the "Miracle Rice Pot", (!) so this obscured the results somewhat, but I did find this story from Cuba:

http://www.sermonillustrationlibrary.org/illustration36

relating to never-ending salad leaves and tomoatoes.

I wouldn't be surprised if a more intense search were done that more examples might be found.

This could show one of the following:
1) Such miracles are not uncommon and are no indication of the special status of the people involved.
2) People are more gullible and open to suggestion in times of stress than we allow for.
3) The Cuban story and/or the Bapak story is a fabrication or exaggeration.

No doubt by telling the Bapak story the proponents think they are doing Subud a favour by strengthening the faithful. But it is just this sort of religious wonderment that is likely to put off our chief prospective market, i.e. those looking for an individual spiritual experience free from dogma and veneration.

Another story I heard was of someone travelling to a Congress who got stuck at an airport where she didn't speak the local language and her money was stolen also. She closed her eyes and prayed for help, and just as she opened her eyes there standing in front of her was a member whom she hadn't seen for years. "Proof of God's guidance." Am I, like Merin, going to be sceptical of this Subud story, I hear you asking? No, I am not, because it is not a Subud story - it is a Jehovah's witness one,

Sahlan

From Philip Quackenbush, September 20, 2010. Time 15:37

Hi, Merin,

Well, I suppose these stories of "miracles" have to some extent, at least, been propagated by the founder himself. I remember one lecture I heard him give in which he "casually" mentioned walking on water after his "ball of light" experience, or at least at sometime in that same general area (his back yard, perhaps). The story of "Jesus" walking on water in the decoded New Testament (the result of twenty years of research by an Australian biblical scholar) is a result of the history of his life being put in code to prevent the ruling Romans from coming down hard on the Jews for their anti-Roman activities in which "Jesus", as a zealot, was involved (and perhaps the traditional Jews for coming down on the exiled Essenes). His "walking on water" was a mere local euphemism for walking out on the wharf (at Qumran where he was actually born, not in Bethlehem) onto the Dead Sea. HIs changing water into wine, another "miracle", was a euphemism for allowing water baptism initiates at the wedding to participate in the wine ceremony, which was only usually allowed to the "higher" initiates. The New Testament seen in the light of the decoded version, gives a more complete history of "Jesus'" life, including who sat where at the "Last Supper" and an account down to the last minute, in some cases, of what happened, as well as where he was "buried" (he was actually buried, according to three other sources I've run into, in Old Town Srinagar, in Pakistan, at the age of 120). Another "miracle" (sort of), connected with the founder, was related to me by an eye-witness member decades ago, who saw a bunch of lights hovering over or around the Cilandak compound during one of the founder's birthdays. When she asked one of the locals what they were, the answer given was that they were there to celebrate (or honor) his birthday, and that it happened every year. Connected with that could be a "receiving" of another member when he asked during one latihan if the latihan was from UFO's and got the immediate response, "Of course." In my opinion, none of this matters, because as the Indian gurus usually tell their chelas, all these "siddhis" ("spiritual" abilities or effects) are of no real importance, because they're just distractions (of which there are probably millions for each person)
from the ultimate goal of reunion or realization of the All. Enjoy.

Peace, Philip

From Marius, September 20, 2010. Time 23:45

I'm firmly with the sceptics here, as are most people whose opinion I respect. I don't believe in physical miracles and they've never been, to my knowledge, proven to exist.

I find the famous rice story disquieting because it strongly suggests that people in Subud are gullible and / or confabulatory (if that's even an adjective) – or, more disturbingly, liars. Or perhaps things like this do happen. In which case, would you still feel hungry afterwards, as with Chinese food?

I've had a handful of pretty far-out experiences through the latihan but these are distinguished from stories of regenerative rice and suchlike by the fact that they have all taken place on an inner plane and as such are relevant only to my process. I've even experienced a handful of surprising coincidences in the outer world that have given me pause but I don't have a great and terrible need to tell everybody about them. It seems that doing so takes from these events any power they may have had, although I'm not sure why.

I'd like to think that I am, normally, reasonably rational (by my standards, it must be said) and I like the scientific and logical standards demanded by the secular world; it helps keep in check the bizarre claims of pretty much anything that could be placed loosely in the ‘alternative / new age’ section of life's supermarket.

Having said that I have experienced the way that life can sometimes proceed in a harmonious way that seems to go beyond fortunate happenstance – and I can only attribute that to the influence of a greater, hyperconscious whole. But that's just my experience and, in direct opposition to what I wrote a couple of paragraphs ago, I have now told you about it. I do so only to make the point that I do believe that the latihan can deliver on certain promises made for it in terms of one's spiritual growth. That's why, going back to the original comments made on my article, I don't consider it arrogant in the least to believe that the latihan (or any other spiritual connection) is special, as long as I don't make the assumption that I become special by proxy as a result of the fact that I am a practitioner – or that people outside Subud are in any way ‘less than’.

Out of interest, would anyone care to comment on friends in and out of Subud? My wider circle of friends is composed of all shades of people, from dropout musicians to self-made millionaires, and few of them even know Subud exists. I ask because it has always looked to me as if people in Subud who avoid the ‘outside world’ (I'd have thought, rather, that it is Subud members who are the outsiders) are far more prone to the sort of fundamentalism under discussion. Does anyone concur? And is there a term for this syndrome?

From Sahlan Diver, September 21, 2010. Time 0:5

Not commenting on Marius's post, but referring back to the original rice story, there is a paradox.

The story tellers presumably used the "miracle" as evidence that Bapak had special spiritual authority. However if you believe that then you also have to believe as authoritative the talk in which Bapak said that although there were miracles at the time of Christ, nowadays there will no longer be any such miracles. Thus the miracle is nullified as not actually having happened,

Sahlan

From rocohanah, September 21, 2010. Time 1:36

MIRACLE RICE : Never happened. Instead I will tell you another Bapak story: in the early days of Subud some of our "spiritual guys" would be "in latihan" all day and when their wives would suggest they get a job, they would utter "god will provide"; to which B. said something like : "There is no spiritual rice, if you want to eat, you have to work."

Merin: how old were those Subud blokes you mentioned above? or how long ago did that conversation occur? I can hardly believe that there are still people in Subud who would actually believe stories like that...

And "test" was definitely to make sure I was still allowed to post here. :-)

From rochanah, September 21, 2010. Time 1:39

Philip: I WROTE A COMMENT

From Merin Nielsen, September 21, 2010. Time 2:3

Hi, Rochanah,

You asked how old: in their 40s or 50s, like me. It's not so hard to believe there are "still" people in Subud believing miracle stories, as they represent those most likely to stay!

Cheers, Merin

From Marius, September 21, 2010. Time 9:54

I'm with you there, Philip - quite the opposite of naïve, I would have thought. Sticking my neck out, I'd go as far as to say that if the latihan's anything, it's detergent that, over time, reveals that we're a community of equals. How could it be otherwise when (metaphorically) we are droplets in the spray that will eventually rejoin the ocean?

Which brings me to another thing I'd be interested to know - what are people's views on the afterlife? One of the things I am glad of is that over years of doing the latihan, my thinking has been repositioned to the point that I find 'heaven' and 'hell' rather naïve and antiquated constructs. So much for what it isn't; as for what it is, I really can't say - I haven't been there yet (as far as I know).
Cheers, Marius

From Marius, September 21, 2010. Time 10:33

OK, so, that's weird...I posted the above in response to a post by Philip, but his post has disappeared and orphaned mine along with it...

From webmaster, September 21, 2010. Time 11:10

The post referred to contained deliberate mis-spellings.

The poster had been warned several times before that deliberate mis-spellings violate our conditions for acceptance of posts. The post was therefore removed soon after placement.

From Marius, September 21, 2010. Time 11:33

Ah - thanks for that, now I understand. It took me several reads before I picked up on what was meant by the mis-spelling in question and I'm a native speaker. Philip, could you maybe redo the post, as I thought it made a cogent point nonetheless.

From Philip Quackenbush, September 22, 2010. Time 2:17

Hi, Marius,

I generally dump the postings I make to Subud Vision, because of the assumption that I can read them any time in the archives of the site. However, I found that I couldn't retrieve the post in question on my computer for "correction", because my "history" function sent me to a new page, and I haven't yet installed a backup hard drive that would save every keystroke I make (a Big Brother of one's own making). Therefore, unless the webmaster is willing to send me a copy of the offending post for correction, or somebody else who has it archived before it was removed can send a copy to me for editing or edit it his or her self eand re-post it, I'm afraid it's toast. I should say before I sign off that this discussion has gotten rather lively recently, so I can understand the frustration of the webmaster in reading it all and adhering to the new posting rules, so I'll do my best to not transgress them in the future. Enjoy.

Peace, Philip

From Stefan, February 17, 2011. Time 13:50

Great article Marius and I'm inspired by a lot of the discussion. I think the concept Merin introduces of "normative" sums up a common cause between all contributors. However much we differ on the details we all want to liberate the latihan from normative assumptions, language and metaphors. Some of us recommend relinquishing certainties. By implication we should make no claims whatsoever about the latihan. Others would say it's OK to share personal stories, feelings or fuzzy metaphors about the latihan so long as there is no suggestion that these are literal truths.

We all agree that we don't want to be represented by formulaic words. The way to demonstrate this is not by suppressing personal stories, feelings and metaphors about the latihan but by ensuring that a diversity of these are readily accessible to any enquirer and stating clearly that these are all personal and subjective. I like the analogy Marius makes with music. It's fine to talk about a personal response to a piece of music because everybody knows that someone else's response may be entirely different. Why not describe latihan in this way - like a series of music reviews?

David suggests latihan is like vitamin K - a supplement for people who are lacking something. Great. Print that. Philip views it as one manifestation of an inherent relaxation response in all humans and recommends that practitioners make a point of making an objective "outside" assessment as well as a subjective "inside" one. Wonderful. Print that. Sjahari wonders if the latihan is the same or different from spontaneous movements. sounds and positive feelings he experiences in improvisation sessions outside of Subud. Print that question - questions are as descriptive and valuable as statements. So "the latihan" is described like Prospro's island in which different people discover entirely different challenges, treasures and personal insights. And those who find nothing of particular value are given airspace too. A spectrum of individual voices, with questions, ambivalences and uncertainties will help engender tolerance for uncertainty and for widely differing individual feelings, questions, views and discussions. This will be more colourful and sustainable than trying to establish a new network in which personal stories are absent. The intention would simply be to avoid making any particular personal view - even the view that everything is uncertain - into a dogma or an official line.

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