Subud Vision - Discussion
Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud
Discussion continued from this page
From bronte, January 6, 2008. Time 14:47
Merin,
I firstly wonder how your posting arrives at 1.00 am, with a time stamp of 14.22.
(Managing Editor's Note: All postings get marked with the time they are received in the Republic of Ireland, which is where the Subud Vision site is hosted from. If we marked postings with local times, the times would often be out of order, which might confuse the reader into thinking the postings were arranged wrongly on the page.)
We should, theoretically, be able to phone each other, since I am sitting here as your posting got reported.
Then we might really examine our differences.
However, as to Bapak's validity:
If he was right, we are OK to do what he said.
If he was wrong, we are heading in the wrong direction by doing the latihan he gave us. And that thought does not bear thinking about.
As to the source of his advice, usually described as "received", I did tell David W of an experience in Sydney when Bapak had to wait before he could resume talking, after I had interrupted him so I could change the tape over. It may indicate something about Bapak's source of information that some of us find strange.
Anyway, reading most of my postings here (if you're a bit of a masochist), will quickly show where I am coming from, and how I separate the latihan from Subud.
It is simply that I consider I am doing something that is not dependent on Subud, the organisation, nor on Subud, the "thing" Bapak gave us, because I believe it is a direct connection between myself and the infinite life. Just like lots of other people do, but they call it God, or the Power of God, and I usually do too. I think I don't want to pursue too much more about Bapak's "errors', unless it is a very specific quote of his. Then I might affirm my acceptance of it for myself, or admit that to me the item does not matter. Otherwise, I seem more pro-Bapak than you, Philip, or David W. So I am weak brained and thin skinned for that. Them's the breaks!
Peace and Happiness, even if only on The Funny Farm.
Bronte
From Walter Segall, January 6, 2008. Time 15:45
About accepting everything that Bapak told us: Bapak told us many things that are not in accord with the teachings of Islam, of science, and (sometimes) of common sense. it may be very difficult to accept these statements, and it may be that there are many persons who will do the Latihan without accepting all of Bapak's statements.
The late Muhammed Mansur Meideros sent literally hundreds (probably over one thousand) well-researched posts which showed Bapak to have stated things which are not in accord with Muslim teaching or are othewise contradicted by observation or generally accepted knowledge.
W.
From Philip Quackenbush, January 6, 2008. Time 17:56
Hi, Merin and Yafiah,
The reference to "accursed habit" was in reference to active homosexual activity.
The best answer I can give you, Yafiah, would be to subscribe to Subudtalk, where you can find the Watch series in the archive of that group list that Walter mentions where Mansur Medeiros goes over bung Subuh's lectures with a fine-tooth comb. He, too, was basically a Sufi, not a Salafist, and according to some reports, was not seen in a local mosque for Jummah prayer, possibly ever. He made many strange statements in relation to all major religions over the years that seem to have been a result of his culture and basic refusal to look outside of his "receiving" to get at the facts in many cases.
It may take a while to get a response to your request to join Subudtalk, since some of us have noted that the moderator may be asleep at the switch, but the procedure is the same for all Yahoo grouplists, I think, that have restricted their subscribers. In Subudtalk, the only requirement to join is that you be a Subud member.
Peace, Philip
From bronte, January 6, 2008. Time 22:33
I think I'd like the time and energy to read Mansur's research.
I recall reading some of it, on SubudTalk, but my memory is not what it should be.
I suppose I am a bit one-eyed about Subud, like a lot of other people, but I have had that one eye bashed a bit by the reality of how Subud people behave towards each other.
And I am also like a lot of other people in thinking that religion(s) don't get everything covered adequately so that they can't be misunderstood. So Bapak may have said an un-Muslim thing, yet be right. I am not Muslim, so I am not telling anyone to choose Bapak's explanation over a Muslim dogma or teaching. I probably would do so myself though.
As to science and Bapak. Who says science has it all?
They still don't know how to handle and utilise static electricity, which is as much un-harnessed as cosmic rays. I speak not as a scientist (Bapak once told me I should study science) but I am quoting a friend who last week was awarded a science degree, having studied physics and being already an electronics technician, among other things.
And science may find more correct answers yet, but it still has a lot of contradictions to deal with.
As to contradictions in Bapak's facts. Well, again, I (or "We" if you wish to include all latihan practitioners) must choose to believe in the Subud latihan, or not. If not, then I don't belong here, nor does anyone else with that view.
The link to Sufism was most helpful in putting my latihan into a broader perspective, and I hope that statement applies to many others reading this.
From Michael Irwin, January 6, 2008. Time 22:53
"No person, on the basis of race, color, ethnicity, religion, national origin or ancestry, age, sex, sexual orientation, or marital status shall be discriminated against, excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination in any program or activity for which Subud USA is responsible."
The above is not technically inclusive of all humanity. It potentially excludes those characteristics not listed such as criminal record, moral turpitude or with Down’s syndrome. Personally I would not want to engage in a discussion as to whether a murderer should be opened or not (S/he could be in jail or had done his/her time) or whether the person is a publicly outed compulsive liar (by reputation) or whether the person is suffering a disability that might bother others (We had a Downs syndrome person in our group who seemed to benefit from the latihan).
Bronte wrote: “But if we must discard Bapak's words as untrue, then it follows, as night follows day, that we MUST give up latihan as well.” No it doesn’t. ‘Nuff said on that. However, I must take issue with the use of the word ‘untrue’. Surely the point is that we are not dealing with truth or untruth here but varying degrees of anachronistic cultural influences on Bapak’s personal description of reality. Some of that included useful observations on a particular practice we call the latihan and a whole lot of observations about how the rest of life seemed to him in matters that we may all have a current and possibly different opinion on.
From David W, January 6, 2008. Time 23:10
Hi Yafiah
"At the end of the Koran one finds the Al Fatihah."
79 CDK 4
"And then after all that, after the whole of the Al Koran, we come at the end to the Al Fatihah..."
79 CDK 6
You might also find the following pages of interest:
http://www.subud-sufism.co.uk/
http://sitekreator.com/demystifysubud/legacy_for_subud.html
http://www.iqra.net/articles/Jilani/jilani12.htm
http://www.raymondo.demon.co.uk/subud/sharjord.htm
The last includes the following account by Sharif:
"Many of the people who heard my presentation came to me afterwards, and said they would like to tell me their experience, and they obviously felt we were talking about the same thing. There were three or four senior Muslims present when I gave my talk. I was quite nervous about them because I am a Muslim, and here I was talking about something that is not mentioned anywhere in the Quran; in the past I'd been given a rough time when I've talked about Subud in places like Saudi Arabia. But interestingly, each one came up to me later and said, 'Actually, I have the same experience, because I've been a Sufi and I know this and this, and this is how we do it', and so on."
Most of Pak Subuh's Sufism seems to be derived from Abdul Qadir Jilani and ibn Arabi.
Best
David
From Merin Nielsen, January 6, 2008. Time 23:13
Hi, Bronte,
>> If he was wrong, we are heading in the wrong direction by doing the latihan he gave us.
I don't see this connection. By way of a slightly tiresome example, it's generally agreed that Einstein had brilliant insights concerning physics, but was wrong about certain fundamentals of quantum mechanics. However, that doesn't make quantum mechanics less useful. Likewise, if Bapak was wrong about various matters relating to spirituality, that doesn't make the latihan less beneficial. Trusting in the Subud latihan is surely not, therefore, a matter of trusting in Bapak's words.
Hi, Philip,
>> Would you say, then, that the phrase "accursed habit" is down-to-earth, diplomatic, and allows one to decide if it's true or not?
You've subsequently implied that this phrase was used by Pak Subuh in reference to homosexual activity, and presumably (from the context of my posting) you recall Pak Subuh saying that Subud members should find out for themselves whether or not homosexual activity is an accursed habit - which does seem like weird advice. And so to answer your question, no. My posting, however, was not about whether Pak Subuh said various things that were false. It was about whether he admitted the possibility that he said various things that were false.
Regards,
Merin
From bronte, January 7, 2008. Time 0:11
Merin,
I am not sure how much more there is to say about the rightness and wrongness of Bapak's guidelines.
Of course, those who believe Bapak received his advice from an infallible higher source won't want to read, let alone participate, in this discussion.
I just want to be able to grasp whatever I can of the guidelines Bapak offerred which may address my needs, or my understanding, without having to face a challange that they are wrong, and therefore my application of them is wrong, and an alternative way of persuing my life or my latihan is/are needed. The helpers and others already provide lots of conflicting advice for those matters.
As to homosexuality and Subud, versus straight sexuality and Subud, it is a debate straight from the narrow confines of ignorant religious practice. The one is treated as evil, or cursed, the other as normal, until it is acknowledged that sex is for procreation and nothing else. And whoever makes that acknowledgment is, for me, living on another planet from mine.
As these things are understood by each according to their own experiences, I just wish it was not discussed here, when we examine Bapak's advice. There have been forums for this dicussion, but I have never found one where there is open ness and honesty and no prejudice and Subud. The discussion I referred to at Skymont may have been, but I was not there, and I have never read anything of what people there thought or believed. There are many people who might join and benefit from Subud, but not while it appears to be so intolerant of differences, as it is.
I recall hearing one Subud person rattling off the names of several members, some of them married, who she knew were "gay", as an almost dismissive remark. Well, that was not really helpful. I happened to know she was right in three of the people concerned, but so what? They stayed in Subud, and should be allowed to stay, which of course they have.
But Subud really has no helpful advice to offer them.
From Andrew Hall, January 7, 2008. Time 1:40
Hello to all,
I think Bapak's talks are "officially" treated in Subud as some kind of scripture.
If we say that we accept some of what Bapak said, and not other things, then how do we decide? If it is up to each individual to decide, what does this say about the "belief", unspoken or not, that reading the talks can have a mystical effect?
Granted there are empirical facts, such as what is the name of the final book of the Koran, where what Bapak said may be right or wrong. Beyond empirical questions of fact, while I certainly do not agree with some of what he is reported to have said, so it is "not true" for me (and some of it I actually strongly disagree with), I agree with Michael Irwin and personally would prefer that we avoid using the labels "true" and "not true".
I would like people to consider this question - How do we bridge the divide between the Bapakites and the Latihaners on this issue, between those who feel that everything Bapak said is divinely inspired and those who feel otherwise? The wider core issue for Subud is the authority of Bapak.
May I suggest that it will be more helpful to refer to an actual piece of text when we say we disagree with what Bapak said. In that way, someone who up to now has accepted and "believes" that everything that Bapak said is true, will have Bapak's actual words to examine and so can decide for themself how they feel about the specific text in question.
Regards,
Andrew
From Philip Quackenbush, January 7, 2008. Time 7:0
Hi, Y'all,
Michael wrote:
" "No person, on the basis of race, color, ethnicity, religion, national origin or ancestry, age, sex, sexual orientation, or marital status shall be discriminated against, excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination in any program or activity for which Subud USA is responsible."
The above is not technically inclusive of all humanity. It potentially excludes those characteristics not listed such as criminal record, moral turpitude or with Down’s syndrome. Personally I would not want to engage in a discussion as to whether a murderer should be opened or not (S/he could be in jail or had done his/er time) or whether the person is a publicly outed compulsive liar (by reputation) or whether the person is suffering a disability that might bother others (We had a Downs syndrome person in our group who seemed to benefit from the latihan)."
There's a Down's syndrome person here who does "latihan", too. Whether it benefits her, I haven't asked. As to murderers, one of the early Indonesian "helpers" (Asikin?) was praised by bung Subuh as being a good example of the action of the "latihan" as a "reformed" "hit man" for the government, as I recall.
Merin wrote:
>> Would you say, then, that the phrase "accursed habit" is down-to-earth, diplomatic, and allows one to decide if it's true or not?
"You've subsequently implied that this phrase was used by Pak Subuh in reference to homosexual activity, and presumably (from the context of my posting) you recall Pak Subuh saying that Subud members should find out for themselves whether or not homosexual activity is an accursed habit - which does seem like weird advice. And so to answer your question, no. My posting, however, was not about whether Pak Subuh said various things that were false. It was about whether he admitted the possibility that he said various things that were false."
Well, I specifically recall a lecture he gave in Santa Monica in which he said that he couldn't lie, because "God" wouldn't let him. While I was a Subietrubie at the time and accepted that, my subsequent experience has shown me that it was arrogant nonsense, especially after having so many errors of fact and mistranslations pointed out by Mansur Medeiros in his Watch series on Subudtalk. If anyone wants to follow the advice of such a "mouthpiece" of "God", they're welcome to, but I'm not about to lay down and take it any more. IMO, it's exactly the sort of lack of thinking and subservience to authority that has led to the current crisis in world affairs, where the three Abrahamic religions lay claim to the "temple mount" in Jerusalem, and the Christians that support the Jewish claim to it to build a new temple are eager to do so, which means, of course, tearing down the Dome of the Mount mosque to start WW III (Armageddon, in their view when they'll all be whisked to "heaven" by "Jesus", while the "unbelievers" will be left here to suffer the "final holocaust". Fully 44% of the US population surveyed believe that fantasy. Talk about critical mass and creating the conditions for an expectation, or "prophecy"! Rotsa ruck!
Andrew wrote:
"May I suggest that it will be more helpful to refer to an actual piece of text when we say we disagree with what Bapak said. In that way, someone who up to now has accepted and "believes" that everything that Bapak said is true, will have Bapak's actual words to examine and so can decide for themself how they feel about the specific text in question."
Good idea, except in my case, I donated all my SUBtexts to the local group's library, having no further use for them and I'm not very good at Googling. The texts or tapes of bung Subuh's lectures are probably all available from the Subud Boston online library, but the only critical analyses of them that I know of are the Watch series on Subudtalk, the general attitude seeming to be that they're "sacred scriptures" and not to be thought about, much less criticised. Just "receive", i.e. put yourself in a highly-suggestible alpha state where the critical faculty is dampened and there is the strong tendency to accept whatever is being said as true (sometimes known as "guided meditation," sometimes known as "self-hypnosis").
Peace, Philip
From Merin Nielsen, January 7, 2008. Time 10:35
Hi, Philip,
I wasn't wondering about whether Bapak was lying; just whether he admitted to the possibility of being mistaken.
He occasionally said words to the effect of, "Don't just believe me, but find out for yourself whether what I've told you is true." Pehaps I'm being too charitable, but I've always taken this to imply that Bapak accepted that he could be mistaken (read with the final phrase 'or false') - assuming that Bapak was being (at least occasionally) realistic about his own limitations, rather than disingenuous.
Hi, Michael, and Andrew,
Michael wrote:
>> However, I must take issue with the use of the word ‘untrue’. Surely the point is that we are not dealing with truth or untruth here but varying degrees of anachronistic cultural influences on Bapak’s personal description of reality. Some of that included useful observations on a particular practice we call the latihan and a whole lot of observations about how the rest of life seemed to him in matters that we may all have a current and possibly different opinion on.
Andrew has also expressed reluctance to use the terms 'true' and 'untrue' in this regard. However, I'm happy to keep referring to truth whenever we're discussing opinion about matters of fact. (i.e. In my opinion, Greenland is larger than Australia.) At other times we're discussing opinion about matters of discretion. (i.e. In my opinion, Shakespeare is bland.)
I think Bapak's manner of presenting ideas was significantly influenced by his cultural background such that he was inclined to speak in a style that many Westerners would intuitively interpret as somewhat 'loose with the truth' - except when, due to complicated circumstances, they are instead disposed to interpret it as 'divinely inspired'. I suspect that this cultural mannerism, connected with fulfilling the traditional duty of a spiritual teacher in Bapak's Javanese society, is insufficiently recognised among Subud members. To put it bluntly, by Western standards he was playing rather freely with words, concepts and explanations. By other cultural standards, however, I suspect that Bapak was embracing his socially allocated role in a relatively responsible and culturally understandable way. Certain problems about the appropriate 'attitude to words' arise partly from this discrepancy between cultural contexts. Thus a figurative statement like, "God won't let Bapak lie," should not be treated too seriously at face value.
Cheers,
Merin
From Lilliana Gibbs, January 7, 2008. Time 12:19
Hello everyone, and thanks Stefan for your comments on my article. Discussion has moved on this week, but I wanted to contribute this story which I heard recently. Some years ago in Hungary a transvestite wanted to be opened. The helpers were willing but confused, and ask Ibu Rahaju for advice – should he/she be opened by men or women?
The response was the suggestion to "ask the applicant which they would prefer".
How simple, obvious and appropriate!
I do think we take can take all this stuff too seriously, and worry too much about doing the wrong thing. We have our own capacities to make decisions, to use our best judgment, and to resolve tricky questions when there is disagreement.
Cheers,
Lilliana
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