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Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud

Throwing some light on some of the problems which Subud groups have face. From Edward Fido, February 2, 2008. Time 1:47

Hi Everyone,

One of the problems dealing with Subud is that most of the material written on it is from individual points of view: viz 'my experience(s)'.

This may be well and good but is highly subjective.

I am wondering whether a look at Louise Samways 'Dangerous Persuaders', available free for personal use from her website:

may not throw some light on some of the problems which Subud groups have faced.

Human beings being human beings I am not surprised that some Subud members have suffered what Jack Kornfield calls spiritual 'inflation'.

My own concern is with the fact that I think there have been times where what might be retrospectively be considered unwise opening or continuance of the latihan may not have precipitated mental problems.

This is a subject I think requires serious thought and comments from the likes of Aliman and Helissa, who actually have real qualifications in the field, or someone like Hassanah, who has qualifications bordering on the area.

This is not, IMO, something which can be swept under the carpet by reference to 'Bapaksay', 'Sudarto said' or reference to a mythical 'we' by Mike Higgins in a previous post.

Subud either comes out of the closet into the full light of public scrutiny and attention or fades away as an irrelevant and possibly suspect cult.

Now is the time.



From Philip Quackenbush, February 3, 2008. Time 8:11

Hi, Edward,

You said,

I am wondering whether a look at Louise Samways 'Dangerous Persuaders', available free for personal use from her website:

may not throw some light on some of the problems which Subud groups have faced.

Excellent suggestion. It should probably be required reading for anyone exposed to the cult. I've downloaded a copy and am reading it.

What really struck me so far is how much worse the cult problem is in Australia than it seems to be even in the US, and her succinct and accurate reasoning why Australia is the only country outside of the UK still supporting the US's illegal war and occupation in Iraq to any appreciable extent, the others of the so-called "coalition of the willing" having been coerced in some way to send troops.

Another thing I ran across recently was a succinct explanation of "enlightenment, liberation", whatever else you want to call it, and why there are no such things as "levels," to be found on the home page of Stephen Wingate, at

Peace, Philip

From Edward Fido, February 4, 2008. Time 2:28

Hi Philip,

Thanks for the Stephen Wingate details. Very interesting! Will read more from the site later.

You might also find Louise Samways' other book, 'Your Mindbody Energy', interesting/useful. As well as some of her articles on the website.

When 'Dangerous Persuaders' came out she was threatened and sued by some of the cults referred to in the book.

Australia has had a long history of involvement with cults, both home grown and imported. Theosophy was very big here as well as its offshoot the Liberal Catholic Church. One of the great referrers of people to Subud in Brisbane in the early days was an allpurpose guru, Gurdjieff leader and sometime visitor to Rajneesh/Osho in Poona.

I like Stephen Wingate's advice referring people with mental illness problems to their doctor and stating he couldn't cure them.

One of my main impressions over the years is that joining Subud with undiagnosed and untreated mental problems is extremely dangerous. I have a few horror stories I could relate, but, as most of the people are alive and I do not have their permission, I have no intention of 'outing' them. One did commit suicide under very strange circumstances, IMO not unassociated with the 'help' he was receiving from a deceased helper.

Hassanah Briedis is indeed fortunate that she was a member of the Melbourne Group at the time doing the latihan was counterindicated for her.

When one talks of 'helper quality' I feel that there are many who would be incapable of reaching the decision, through appropriate testing, which the Melbourne Women's Group did in her case.

Subud worldwide is on a steep learning curve in this area IMO.

It is not a problem which can be magicked away or pooh poohed as either nonexistent or under control.

This is an area in which Pak Subuh was totally ignorant.



From Philip Quackenbush, February 4, 2008. Time 16:7

Hi, Edward,

That's very interesting what you said about Theosophy, which seems to be, hysterically, at least, one of the major influences on Subud theological assumptions, since my impression in reading a portion of "The Secret Doctrine" was that Blavatsky (with or without her baboon), was rabidly anti-Catholic (as well as anti-a lot of other things that didn't fit her fantasy world). At least she left the world with some fairly good bookstores as a legacy, if you're big into picking lint out of your navel, though some of the science shelves tend to be a bit skewed in their choice of litachoor.

Peace, Philip

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