Subud Vision - Discussion
Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud
Discussion continued from this page
From David W, January 28, 2008. Time 8:6
Hi Philip, Stefan,
I can't remember which "ruler" I ran over Subud at the time, but I dug up this one by the academic Eileen Barker. Barker is very sympathetic towards cults, and is for that reason targeted by the anticult movement as a "cult apologist", as you can ascertain by googling: eileen barker cult apologist. For that reason, I have high confidence that this is a neutral list. My appraisal in parentheses at the end of each point.
http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/cult-checklist/eileen-barker.html
* A movement that separates itself from society, either geographically or socially; (YES)
* Adherents who become increasingly dependent on the movement for their view on reality; (SOME DO)
* Important decisions in the lives of the adherents are made by others; (YES for those who ask B or R for naming, career or marriage guidance. Just the fact that anyone does is a bad sign.)
* Making sharp distinctions between us and them, divine and satanic, good and evil, etc. that are not open for discussion; (YES... given that any discussion is "from the mind")
* Leader who claim divine authority for their deeds and for their orders to their followers; (YES)
* Leader and movements who are unequivocally focused on achieving a certain goal. (YES, for those who subscribe to "Bapak's Mission".)
Over the last 20 years, most of these have declined.
Best
David
From David W, January 28, 2008. Time 8:11
PS: The funnest and funniest "cult checklist" is this one:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
It's amazing what people get up to.
Best
David
From Michael Irwin, January 29, 2008. Time 0:41
Regarding David's search for a meaning of 'spiritual' and 'transcendent'. I am concerned here only with a meaning for 'spiritual'.
I found the dictionary meanings frustrating because they didn't suit my needs for use. The two uses referred generally to a feeling of commonality between people as in 'the spirit of the gang was low' or to anything that was not physical, that is, measurable, such as magical spirits, or any unfocussed but positive feeling of me and my relationship with the universe. (Even though I'm not addressing the meaning of 'transcendent' directly, that unfocussed feeling is transcendent in that it goes beyond the self.)
In reference to the latihan, for me the meaning has come to mean the direct experience of nothing or blankness (no thoughts, no memories, no visualizations) and with that an awareness of being aware or the knowing experience of nothing.
Michael
From Philip Quackenbush, January 29, 2008. Time 0:49
David wrote:
"PS: The funnest and funniest "cult checklist" is this one:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
It's amazing what people get up to."
Well, I got up to about 5-11, but I seem to have shrunk a bit since.
Peace, Philip
From Andrew Hall, January 29, 2008. Time 22:50
Hi David, Stefan and everyone,
I have some difficulty talking about Subud as a cult although I agree there are certainly some of characteristics that Eileen Barker lists that can make a case that Subud is cult-like in some respects.
I especially dislike the anti-intellectual bias in Subud, the avoidance of discussion and debate based on the idea that this is "from the mind." This really seems to do us all a great disservice.
However, as I say in my previous post, I prefer to use language that avoids judgement and recognizes that people were and are trying to get real human needs met by joining and staying in Subud. I certainly find this non-judgemental language much easier to use when I talk about Subud Vision at my local group. I've found that talking about how Subud resembles a cult tends to shut people down. Small wonder, eh?
And I don't want to use one set of words here and then another when I'm at a Subud event. It bothers me when I find myself doing that.
(I am very curious about the initial attraction and eventual disaffection of John Bennett from Subud, and I wonder if the estrangment model that Len Oakes describes would apply to Bennett.)
My thinking at this time is influenced by Anthony Bright-Paul's book "Stairway to Subud" which I have been reading online. I marvel at the impact that the experience of the latihan had in 1957 on the people who had been studying the Gurdjieff work. I can't imagine two experiences that are more different.
Speaking from the viewpoint of 2008, I see the new Subud members in 1957 being swept away by the experience of the latihan and, most important, buying into the explanation of the latihan (along with all of Bapak's cultural baggage) that came with it.
But since Bapak was talking about "Almighty God", I guess it seemed alright to think he meant the same thing as a person in the West means by it. After all, he kept talking about Adam and Abraham and the prophets. How could Bapak mean something foreign to Westerners?
The result is that Subud members from the West entered the world of the nafsu and jiwa and the forces and looked to Bapak to explain everything that this meant. It really was extraordinary. If I get a troubling diagnosis from a doctor, I make sure I get multiple opinions and try to figure out what it means. But the latihan experience seems to have been so powerful and the impact of meeting Bapak so riveting that Subud members felt it was all that mattered. No need to look elsewhere and might it have seemed disloyal?
I certainly feel that Bapak was genuine about everything he said. But in hindsight I think it was terribly wrong for the Western members to abandon the Western tradition of intellectual freedom and inquiry and think that they could inhabit the very rich psychological world of the Javanese and live their lives by it!
Wrong from this vantage point, but very understandable. If I were there at Coombe Springs, I probably would have done the same thing. But I wasn't and we can all now profit by figuring out what happened and what could have been done differently.
My need is to manage living in two worlds, the world of the latihan experience, and the world of the intellect where we use our minds to fully engage with life. I am in the latihan when I do latihan and afterwards I am fully in this world. I don't think mixing the two worlds has worked that well for Subud.
Best,
Andrew
From Philip Quackenbush, January 29, 2008. Time 23:31
Hi, Andrew,
Judging by the titles of the later chapters, it looks like it isn't the usual fawning tribute to the cult, so I plan to read it from the pdf I downloaded, but I can understand why it didn't get re-published by SPI if it doesn't adhere the official Party Line all the way through.
Peace, Philip
From bronte, January 29, 2008. Time 23:42
"My need is to manage living in two worlds, the world of the latihan experience, and the world of the intellect where we use our minds to fully engage with life. I am in the latihan when I do latihan and afterwards I am fully in this world. I don't think mixing the two worlds has worked that well for Subud."
I think this is not an exclusive Subud matter. Neither is the terminology so frowned upon here as "Eastern" so alien to the Western mystical traditions. Was Bennett so ignorant that he "got it wrong" in making the connections he did?
The very idea that latihan, as experienced in Subud, can be part of the moment by moment life work does not seem alien to me. It is just that the quietness involved seems to be too subtle to make the connection with the dynamic latihan we mostly seem to experience when it is a "focused" activity, done on its own.
I occassionally try to "feel the latihan" as I do something else, and it seems to be there, participating in the activity I am doing. So maybe it is an act of "quietening the mind", and therefore similar to qigong, or to Western meditation. I still do not find it necessary to reject so much of Bapak's explanation.
Of course, being first in contact with Subud in 1961 may be the difference. I can't apologise for that, or the possibility that the un-felt influence of Subud that year enabled me to pass all my final year school exams. That was just a bonus.
As to "reasoning" in Subud. Well, my rantings for years have pointed out that I find Subud people most unreasonable in dealing with conflicts. They just won't admit that black is black, or in other words that something happened that needs fixing, by talking about it, and facing the facts, as just happened again here.
From Helissa Penwell, January 30, 2008. Time 0:46
Andrew,
My experience after 40 years of latihan is more in line with Bronte's--feeling the latihan moment-by-moment. I am constantly fascinated to observe how my innerself is training my thinking and emotions to work in harmony with it. So, as in latihan where we are moved to do this or that, I may feel an emotion coming from my center, and not as a reaction in the normal way. Or I may react to a situation in the normal way and then experience feedback in the form of a kind of sickening sensation that originates in my inner-feelings that sends a red flag up that my reaction is not right and I need to adjust it. That generally means that I have some self-reflection and adjustment to do. On the other hand, I am often aware of having an emotion and behind it is the flow of a calm energy that buoys me up and carries me forward, and that signals that I am in harmony with my innerself. Things work out much better for me when I stay in harmony and self-correct when I find myself out of harmony. (Others might say "in harmony with the Will of God" here, but I'm trying to stick with psychological terms according to the preferences of the present posters on SV.)
Life has gotten even more interesting since the latihan's influence has reached my intellect. As with my emotions, thoughts come to me bypassing the usual channels. I'm much more creative than I ever was in my younger days. I can't wait to hear what I'm going to think next! The same feedback system is also working on my thinking: when I am thinking thoughts out of harmony with my deeper self, then I start feeling a fingernails-on-the-blackboard feeling; when I am thinking in line with my innerself, then I feel confident and the ideas flow easily and I can express myself well. The latihan has only served to improve my intellect, so I'm having difficulty tuning into what you are saying about there being a problem.
To sum up-- the latihan is always working in me to bring all parts of myself into a working harmony, a functioning whole. So it's not a situation of the innerself versus the heart and mind. The innerself functions more as a director, working through and with the thoughts and feelings, bringing life and energy to them. All parts work together. I hope this helps and hasn't added to the confusion. It's often difficult to explain in words what is mostly experience.
Helissa
From stefan, January 30, 2008. Time 6:39
Hi Helissa,
You describe some of the integrating effects of the latihan over time (for you). I like the way you phrase it in two ways so that those who aren't comfortable with attributing things to God are not excluded.
I'm interested in collecting brief accounts of the latihan's effect for web-publication and wonder if I might quote you (I'd check with you again before publishing it)
Your description meets two needs for me - one is to have personal accounts of the latihan's effect on daily life. The other is to leave the interpretive part open-ended; not biased towards or against a theistic perspective.
I get a similar feedback from what I've come to think of as my inner feeling. My thinking's a lot clearer than it used to be but I don't know for sure if that's a latihan effect (I suspect it is). I've discovered innate abilities that others appreciate (cooking, massage, dance and choreography) that arise from being able to "let go" as I've gradually become accustomed to do in latihan. This is complemented by what I learn in the normal way, but the joyful spontaneous part seems to arise "by itself" and adds an original quality. I have non-Subud friends who work intuitively and am not at all claiming this as something exclusive to the latihan - just that latihan seems to help me to access it.
Stefan
From Hassanah Briedis, January 30, 2008. Time 7:58
Dear Helissa, what a great description! Thank you, and well said. There is almost nothing in your description that I would change to reflect my own experience. A word here or there perhaps, but essentially you've put it in a nutshell. If this inner-outer feedback system is combined with careful self-awareness, one has an excellent system by which to live. Which is what I do. Due to my psychiatric illness, I can't do group latihan any more, even if I wanted to, but it doesn't seem to matter at all. It all seems to be internalized now, after 45 years in it.
with regards, Hassanah
From Andrew Hall, January 30, 2008. Time 13:21
Dear Helissa and Bronte,
Thank-you for responing to my post, by talking about your experience and how you feel the latihan has benefited you.
I feel very enriched, Helissa, by your talking about how the latihan has integrated into your daily life, especially how your innerself lets you know when you are doing things out of synch with it, and how you respond.
It meets an enormous need in myself for understanding how to deal with similar messages, coming from what I think other traditions might call the Silent Witness.
I really think your response is one of the more valuable posts I have seen on Subud Vision. Thank you.
Best to all,
Andrew
From Helissa Penwell, January 30, 2008. Time 20:45
Stefan, Hassanah, and Andrew,
Thanks for your kind words, and thanks especially for sharing some of your own experiences with using the latihan to improve your lives. I hope we can continue to do more of this on SubudVision.
Helissa
From David W, January 31, 2008. Time 10:27
Hi Hassanah
In your article, you described what you saw as "a fundamental link between the latihan of Subud and the psychological process known as dissociation." How do you relate then this dissociation, to Helissa's personal report, which you like? What's the connection between the two?
Also, what does it mean to have internalised a dissociative process? Or is that not what you meant?
Best
David
From David W, January 31, 2008. Time 11:14
Hi Michael
I wonder if you can sharpen your language a bit--provide a bit more detail--in your description of your latihan experience.
For instance, when you say "no thoughts", I'm guessing you mean something like "no internal monologue". But is my guess right? "No memories" can easily conjure up an image of someone who can't remember where they are. You clearly still have that kind of memory in the latihan.
Care to expand?
Best
David
From Hassanah Briedis, January 31, 2008. Time 11:57
Hi David, no, it's not what I meant, but I see how it could be confusing. So I"ve had to think about it to figure out what I do mean.
If you look at Helissa's description, it's not so much about 'being in latihan' as about using the heightened awareness that the latihan can develop, to monitor responses to one's environment, one's decision-making, one's interpersonal interactions, and so on. Helissa says "my inner self is training my thinking and emotions to work in harmony with it". She goes on to describe reacting to a situation in a normal (ie, perhaps unaware) way, and then becoming aware of a sickening sensation that alerts her to the fact that some part of self is definitely NOT happy and needs attention.
The opposite, as Helissa describes, the calm and centred energy, is not necessarily dissociative. In fact my experience of it is that it is the opposite - it is a grounded sense of self, combined with an ability to be present in the moment, at peace with oneself, etc. For some this may evolve through doing latihan, but I can only speak for myself. For me it has evolved through doing long and hard work on myself, and some of this work has made use of the techniques I learnt as part of doing latihan. Those techniques are what I have internalized. Examples would be the ability to instantly switch into a self-reflective or self-aware mode, and the ability to instantly move from a cluttered mental state to a quiet and still state. And I think there are many other skills involved.
I also identify totally with Helissa's description of the effect on the intellect. I find myself having insights and thoughts that are really helpful to others around me. It's not that I would describe them as 'where do they come from, I didn't know I knew that' - no, obviously it comes from my store of knowledge and wisdom. But it just seems to flow out without preparation, and often, a few minutes later I can't remember what I said.
Anyway, I don't see any of that as 'being in latihan', but as having developed a deal of in-tunement with oneself. I like your questions - you keep me on my toes!
Hassanah
Discussion continued on this page