Subud Vision - Discussion
Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud
Discussion continued from this page
From Hassanah Briedis, January 26, 2008. Time 3:18
Hi Stefan and Merin,
Stefan, I understand your questions, and I really appreciate the way you choose to word them - not confrontationally, but really open to asking and listening - thanks. It's a big question you are asking - and any quick response is going to be provisional and insufficient to the importance of it. I think back on my own time of being a fanatical and narrow-minded Subud girl and then woman, and the big awakening around the experience of Totok and the Melbourne group. What I witnessed then was that at the back of an insular fanaticism was fear, insecurity and a pack mentality. It was necessary to be right - absolutely right - about one's belief system, because any cracks threatened its stability, and the whole system might fall apart. I can only assume that when that is the case, the system must be essentially flawed, or challenges to one's reality would not be a threat. I think of the metaphor of the solid brick house, it cannot sway in the wind or bend. It can only change position catastrophically - by falling apart.
That is only one perspective on what is no doubt far more complex.
Merin, I'm definitely referring to Qi Gung, not Falun Gong. We have a 'guru' here in Melbourne, a woman who probably began as just any practitioner, but as people flocked to her and began to hang on her every word, she gradually assumed guru status. What did it for me was when the great Tsunami happened in Asia. After that event, my friend was talking about it, and said (recognize this?) "...... (name)said that the tsunami was caused by a build up of (certain) forces in those people's lives (etc etc)" I just stared in disbelief that my formerly intelligent friend was falling for this, only because her it was her Qi Gung teacher who was saying it. I mentioned plate tectonics and continental shelves, but it was a waste of time. The rot had set in.
Hassanah
From Andrew Hall, January 26, 2008. Time 15:8
Hello to all,
I would like to respond to several of the recent posts.
First, Hassanah's experience with Qi Gong. I can appreciate her reaction to what she sees happening with her friend and others. But I don't think this guru shtick is intrinsic to Qi Gong. I practice a type of Qi Gong but I am not under the spell of any guru (maybe that's my problem!!). Qi Gong is an art and science that has been developed in China over several thousands of years and there are now probably many, many hundreds of types of Qi Gong. I consider Tai Chi as a moving form of Qi Gong.
Nor would I want us to stereotype Christianity based on the behavior of fundamentalist sects. Not only is this a grave disservice to the many, many Christians who are the farthest thing from fundamentalists that I can imagine but our revulsion may close us off from learning what we can from this major world religion.
Secondly, to Philip and his quest to show us that the latihan is not all that special and he's going to show us a better, cheaper and faster way to get to the "latihan state." I guess my first question is why do we assume that there is one type of latihan? Philip has his latihan, and good for him, but I'm not sure how close it is to mine. For me, I use the latihan as a form of worship. During latihan, I feel I am being shown how to worship. What do a I worship? I call it Loving Creative Spirit, my own personal name for G--.
Thirdly, to Stefan and his question about how to deal with close mindedness in Subud. This is an issue very dear to my heart.
I think one way is to openly talk about what happened in the past, so that whatever lessons we can learn from these mistakes and disasters are not forgotten in the present and are transmitted to the young. For instance, Hassanah refererred to the story of Totok and Subud Melbourne. I think this story is an excellent example and it should be told and retold, not in a way that tells people what to think or arouses fear but told in a way that encourages listeners to think and talk about it, so that we can be alive to when we see fear within ourselves and those we are with.
On a very practical level, I would suggest that local Subud groups post the following notice so that everyone can see it as they come in from the street:
"As members of Subud, we are individually responsible for our decisions and our actions. We approach each other with understanding and compassion and we do not encourage nor accept the surrender of our individual responsibility to another."
I hope this is helpful.
Andrew
From Hassanah Briedis, January 26, 2008. Time 22:59
Hi Andrew, yes, I take on board what you're saying about Qi Gung. Thinking about it further, I remember that all the people who I witnessed move their allegiance from a basically psychological approach to a 'spiritual' one, were all novices in the world of mysticism & spiritual practices. What they were offered by the woman in charge was so amazing to them, it was like a new world. Whatever happened after that was a two way process, and I think that's exactly what happened in Subud when Bapak came to the West. It's a parent-child interaction, and what one hopes is that the child eventually grows up, but in the case of spiritual movements, that can take a generation or more. Cheers, Hassanah
From Philip Quackenbush, January 26, 2008. Time 23:5
Hi, Hassanah, Merin, and Andrew,
Hassanah said:
"My experience with Qi Gong was not a happy one, though I never tried it myself. But a whole group of my colleagues in therapy got into it, and I watched the same thing happen to them as I had witnessed in Subud - a giving up of their own capacity for reason! A gradual conversion to fanaticism of belief, and a separation from others."
Well, there are many types of qigong, and taiji constitutes several (the long, short, and medium(?) versions, to name just a few) forms. The one I'm "doing" (or it's doing me) is ziran, or "original" qigong, which is entirely spontaneous, and IMO is identical with the "latihan" with no concepts attached to it. There was a post on Subudtalk a couple years back that described it, as found by a Subud member from Oz or New Zealand when he was in China, and I decided to try it. Having no further input to tell me how it was done or what I should experience, it has remained more or less "pure" in my "receiving" of it, and its effectiveness compared to the "latihan" with all the Subud theological concepts attached to it seems to me much superior to the latter.
I'm sure that what others "receive" "doing" it would be quite different from what I "receive", just as the "latihan" (which again, IMO, is virtually the same physiological process) is "adjusted" by the current condition of the body, including hormone balance, weaknesses, etc., to the needs of the individual. IMO, the process loses effectiveness in direct proportion to any beliefs about it that may be attached to it, including (and perhaps especially) those "explained" by M. Subuh, which I've seen put many Subud members in great confusion during my years in the cult, including myself, rather than lessening it.
Thus, IMO, just "doing" one's "latihan" and ignoring not only those "doing" it around you (as suggested in the "opening" statement) but any opinions ANYONE may have regarding it (unless asked for, which, IMO, is not recommended) could be of supreme importance in producing a useful and transformational effect of the process in one's life. After all, if one has, for example, the belief that the "latihan" is something that's a "gift of God", then one can have the fear that, like any gift, it can be taken away by a vengeful "God" that doesn't approve of your "sins" instead of just letting it happen without that fear.
Peace, Philip
From Andrew Hall, January 27, 2008. Time 1:33
Hi Philip,
I would like to avoid any language that judges yours or another's latihan as "inferior" or "misguided" and my feeling since I sent the last posting is not good. I am not coming from where I want to be.
I don't want to limit your options or my own options or anyone else's freedom by using language which judges what a correct latihan is.
I can only speak for myself and what I experience and feel, as can any of us. We are not authorities about or over one another.
I feel that the talk in Subud about surrender in the latihan has resulted in our not paying enough attention to what I see as the beauty and need for "intent." Phew!! How's that for a sweeping judgement?
I prefer using the word "intent" to the word "devotion", because some people might object to devotion as carrying too much baggage. I am happy to use devotion in the sense that I can accept using it, but I don't like using the word "faith" because that carries too much baggage for me.
It is my choice, and devotion or intent is something that I choose to do. I am not doing it because someone else tells me. As you say in your last paragraph "if one has, for example, the belief that the "latihan" is something that's a "gift of God", then one can have the fear that, like any gift, it can be taken away by a vengeful "God" that doesn't approve of your "sins" instead of just letting it happen without that fear."
Amen to that. I hope you don't put me in that camp! I want you and all Subud members to be free to decide, each for ourselves.
Best,
Andrew
From Philip Quackenbush, January 27, 2008. Time 9:28
Hi, Andrew,
Even though I was responding in part to your post, there was nothing personal intended in my comments. If I got specific as to personalities, I might end up stepping on someone's toes (or even breaking one or two). In the case of the founder of the cult and his daughter, I have little choice, since, IMO, it's many members' attitudes towards what they have said in their lectures that is the main stumbling block to effecting any meaningful structural reform in what is still a cult by several criteria, so criticisms of those lectures are vital, IMO, to producing the needed changes.
Peace, Philip
From stefan, January 27, 2008. Time 10:28
Hi Philip,
"still a cult by several criteria"
You mentioned reverence for the words of founder and daughter as a limiting factor. Seems that about half of Subud take issue with Bapak's advice while the others are longing to promote it ("Wish more people would come to Bapak's talks") I'd be very interested in your take on which aspects of Subud are cultlike and are there any aspects that aren't?
Hassanah,
Thanks for responding to my question. The question of encouraging peoples autonomy and independence of mind rather than snagging both into an organisational whirlpool seems to be central to Subud's (possible) future
Andrew,
I like your suggestion about having a notice up at all Subud groups (A bit like a health warning on a cigarette packet?) putting it more flippantly I'd say "Keep your wits about you and don't believe all you hear!"
I also like the word "intent". You asked awhile ago if the term "higher ideal" would express the mystery to which you or I direct our surrender in latihan (without using the much abused G word). Well I'm still looking for words that chime for me. I have a "sense" of a loving and wide consciousness infusing me during latihan - but no mental picture or concept. My intellect can't reconcile this deeply nourishing experience with harsh and heartless world events (an old conundrum).
Enjoying this discussion.
Stefan
From David W, January 27, 2008. Time 15:25
Hi Hassanah
I think there's an interesting pattern to your recent post. The first paragraph critiques people in being TOO RIGID in their thinking. The second paragraph critiques them for being TOO OPEN MINDED (i.e. too accepting of new ideas.)
I'm not saying that these two critiques cancel each other out. Rather, I think that they are both true, but this apparent antithesis deserves some reflection.
Best
David
From Hassanah Briedis, January 27, 2008. Time 23:31
Hi David, I think the issue may be one of timing - chronology. Perhaps people who are craving something to fill the existential hole, jump enthusiastically into a new-found experiential spiritual system and tend to embrace it fervently, natural enough! But their very innocence and lack of experience is a potential danger, and an experiential exercise requires that you experience, not think or analyze.
Gradually they give up their analytical powers and also fall prey to the hypnotic methods of the leader (a very common approach in these systems), further encouraging them to accept ideas blindly. But (and I'm just thinking on my feet here, so open to debate) MAYBE the problem is that there is an essential disagreement within, as one very useful part of self has been silenced and squashed. That part of self knows things are not right, but the new groupie/disciple HAS to justify its needs and craving for something to give life meaning. Thus we have the development of a fanatical narrow-mindedness, a refusal to hear anything against the system that in some ways has made the self so happy.
Waddaya think? Hassanah
From Andrew Hall, January 28, 2008. Time 3:23
Hi Hassanah,
I prefer to avoid using judgemental language when decribing the psychological mechanisms that result in Subud members being true believers.
The very human needs that are getting met are the needs for assurance, transcendance or spiritual experience, certainty, belonging, safety, and excitement. And those needs are just the ones that pop into my mind at this moment.
I think the young people who joined Subud in the 1960's and 1970's were getting all these needs met.
For some of the members that I know, I wonder if Bapak was some sort of replacement father for them, since their own father was sometimes absent or the relationship was toxic. Mind you, that's just my speculation. If this is what was/is happening, it is because these needs are very real and deserve to be respected and Bapak helped people meet these needs.
On the other side, being a true believer can end up with other needs being neglected, such as our needs for autonomy, independence, self-respect, freedom, and creativity.
The problem and the trap for many people who lose the faith is that after they lose the assurance and safety they once felt, they now may feel guilty for neglecting their other needs for so long and avoiding dealing with their misgivings.
That can give rise to a bitterness that is hard for others to bear. This guilt can be expressed by criticizing Bapak and we do see this happening.
But I think the more common pattern that I see is that people need to retain their faith in Bapak and instead direct their criticism at everyone's favourite target in Subud, the helpers.
I see other members in Subud who are losing their faith and expressing this very passively. They don't trust the organization and they avoid the helpers.
Many Subud groups are places where people live parallel lives and try to avoid anything other than minimal contact with each other.
Or am I being too one-sidedly negative?
Andrew
From David W, January 28, 2008. Time 3:30
Hi Hassanah
I'm reminded again of Len Oakes explanation of the psychology of charismatic followership, which you can find here:
http://www.sustainedaction.org/Explorations/followers_and_their_quest.htm
A few select paragraphs:
"To summarize thus far, the followers have great works that they hope to achieve, agendas laid down in their infantile nuclear selves that they hope to express. They actively seek a vehicle for this expression, in faith that such expression is possible. They meet and come to trust the prophet as a suitable vehicle for the expression of their great work. From the leader is drawn the courage needed for a difficult task. Like the analysand who creates a transference neurosis with the analyst, the followers project their ultimate concerns onto the prophet. The prophet is thus little more than a catalyst or a symbol for the followers, who are really having a relationship with their own selves, or with their ultimate concerns, rather than with another person. Of course the leader has an independent existence, which may confound and surprise at times, but the followers are unlikely to think too much about this."
"A striking thing about the followers is how little they seek to know about the leader’s background. Few ever ask searching questions and critically evaluate the answers. They prefer to let the leader’s daily example serve as the testimony of his truth, and hence as a vehicle for their great work. To question too closely would be to disrupt the pleasant flow of here-and-now fusion. The followers are attempting to live their ultimate concerns, to enter into an active, personal relationship with these concerns in daily life."
...
"Outsiders often criticize the extreme commitment of group members. But what is really happening is that leader and followers are conspiring to realize a vision that is falsified daily. For the cult is not paradise, and the leader is not God. Hence the follower is embattled; to squarely confront the many failings of the leader and the group is to call into question one’s own great work. Only by daily recommitting himself can the follower continue to work toward his ultimate goal. Each follower works out a secret compromise, acknowledging some things while denying or distorting others. Clearly this is a high-risk strategy that may go awry. In discussions with followers one often senses that in some corner of their hearts they keep a critical eye on the many inconsistencies of the group. Most can reflect on their extremes, such as being led into antisocial behaviors because of their dependence. Sometimes they feel bad about this. Later they might wonder "How could I be so gullible? All the warning signs were there, so why did I ignore them?" Outsiders wonder this, too. What is overlooked is the deeper agenda that the follower joined for, and that required the leader’s support to perform. Perhaps, paraphrasing Ernst Kris, we might describe followership as surrender in the service of the ego (Kris 1952); that is, an act that appears to be regressive but is freely willed and somewhat controlled, and that constitutes a temporary strategy in the pursuit of a higher goal."
The way I read this, the follower wants to embark on a program of great personal transformation. In order to get the courage to do this, they need to project their ideal onto a living person. [Elsewhere, Oakes describes the characteristics that person must have in order to be a suitable screen for the projection.] At some level, they KNOW that the there's a self-deception involved in this, but they suppress that knowledge because the creation of the delusion is important to their project, and they push away external evidence or critique that might break the spell, for the same reason.
It's like watching a movie. To enter into the world of the movie, you have suspend disbelief; and you get irritated if someone says, mid-film, "Hey, it's just a movie!". But if the movie is telling a story you feel you need to hear, that's what you do: first suspend your critical faculties, and then push away any thing or input that would bring you out of the movie-created world.
Best
David
From Philip Quackenbush, January 28, 2008. Time 6:56
Hi, Stefan,
You asked which criteria for cults that Subud fulfills. David ran through one list on Subudtalk a while back, and it scored about 21 out of 25, as I recall, with a couple of iffy hits. I just Googled cult criteria and came up with several lists. I'll let you do the same and make your own decision as to how many of the shoes fit. IMO, it's a bunch. It may not be possible to pare down the cult image of Subud to the outside world completely, and it's already officially listed as a cult in at least two countries, if not more, but certainly with sufficient structural changes in the organization and an official website that doesn't almost trumpet the fact with considerable orchestration behind it, it might help, and, as they say in New York, it vouldn' hoit.
On a personal level, I try to be honest about its cultic nature so those who wish to be cautious about adopting the jargon and attitudes of the cult-prone can know that up front, but there's always people that don't want to hear the truth because it might destroy their fantasies, so I generally don't make a big issue about it except where it seems to be important, as on this forum.
Peace, Philip
From David W, January 28, 2008. Time 7:23
Hey folks
Can anyone offer me a working definition of these two words:
SPIRITUAL
TRANSCENDENT
Here they are from the dictionary:
spiritual |ˈspiri ch oōəl|
adjective
1 of, relating to, or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things : I'm responsible for his spiritual welfare | the spiritual values of life.
• (of a person) not concerned with material values or pursuits.
2 of or relating to religion or religious belief : Iran's spiritual leader.
transcendent |tranˈsendənt|
adjective
beyond or above the range of normal or merely physical human experience : the search for a transcendent level of knowledge.
• surpassing the ordinary; exceptional : the conductor was described as a “transcendent genius.”
• (of God) existing apart from and not subject to the limitations of the material universe.
Now in these terms, what do the following mean:
SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCE
TRANSCENDENT EXPERIENCE
It seems to me that to make sense of them, you have to have a cosmology which in which the world if fundamentally divided into two realms: "spiritual" and "physical". I don't have such a cosmology. I realise I can't make sense of these terms, because for me, there is just experience.
Best
David
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