Subud Vision - Discussion

Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud

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From Helissa Penwell, January 23, 2008. Time 21:7

Stefan and Bronte,

One of the most important things I've learned about myself over the years is that when I react to someone in a big way, it's always because they represent something hidden within myself--something that I need to really know about (shadow). That happened recently when I became upset with a certain lady in our Subud group who has taken to finding fault with me. I had thought about it enough to work out why she has a problem with me, but I didn't understand why she got me so riled up. I took it to testing. I asked, "What does (woman) symbolize that is within myself?" Answer: "self-doubt". Well, that's big. That's exactly the issue I've been working on in the last few years: finding a balance between self-confidence and self-doubt; finding out how to maintain self-esteem along with humility; trying to find a working, interactive relationship between these dualities that keeps me moving forward and growing. I didn't need to test about what self-doubt can do when I give it too much focus; I already know that I withdraw and shut down. I did need to think and receive about the useful function of self-doubt. Everything in us has a good use, but we can misuse a characteristic and that's what messes us up. That's why we need to bring these things out in the open, up to consciousness, so that we can put all of our characteristics in proper working order, working together instead of against each other, i.e. harmoniously. It came to me that self-doubt keeps me open to hearing other people's points of view and counters ego feelings of being right. I started imagining self-doubt as a brake on my car ( my standard dream symbol for myself): it keeps me from going too far, too fast; it stops me when I'm headed in the wrong direction, or about to smash into someone else, etc. I had been fighting the aspect of self-doubt within myself because I've given it too much power in the past. But the testing, inspired by my fault-finding friend, revealed that I need to stop fighting it and, instead, invite it to the table. Self-doubt is a valuable member of Team Helissa, just as Self-Esteem has her place there.

Stefan,

Debbie Ford in "The Dark Side of the Lightchasers" (a pop-psych book explaining the Jungian concept of Shadow) recommended personifying characteristics that we wish to bring more into consciousness. I've found this technique very useful and entertaining. So, with your example, you would allow a visualization to form around your Angry-Man, and allow him to come to life. Then you begin a dialogue, asking him questions, e.g "What do you have to tell me that I need to know?", "How can I use you to help my life?", "Do I use you in a destructive way, and why?" -- that sort of thing. For me, interacting with such personifications has made the whole process of shadow work so much more real. It's also interesting to watch the initial "person" transform as "she" becomes more in harmony with the rest of my personality. When I first began this process, it was difficult and often painful, but now it's exciting and wonderful. I've experienced the benefits of becoming more whole, and with that comes much more happiness. I wonder if that's what we're doing here on Subud Vision: shadow work, bringing the unexpressed into consciousness, moving Subud toward more wholeness and true harmony. I hope so.

Helissa

From bronte, January 23, 2008. Time 23:5

Dear Everyone,

I thank you for comments about my experience.

I do not ask for yet another mirror to be placed in front of me. Yanti Lynn, a nice Subud lady in New Zealand, pointed out to me that we have our problems with others because there are problems in ourselves. Theosophists I meet with regularly point out that we create the lessons we need in our life, no matter that they be life threatening, and that we cannot change someone else's behaviour. This noxious individual who has upset me so much each time merely responded, to another person, that I should have had more strength to cope with his criticism of my latihan when he made that, at the time I left Subud first (20 years ago) caused by his comments, and others in a vicious event. Incidentally, I now rate myself as "out of the Subud organisation" for nine and a half years, reinforced thanks to yet another catastophic criticism of my latihan and life by a helper who physically prevented me from attending latihan when I tried to six or seven years ago.

Won't someone notice that it seems OK in Subud for people to tear their brother or sister to bits, and then blame the victim?

This needs attention. It is not really helpful to criticise the victim. Subud is better than that, I hope.

Latihan, it seems, makes people more open, and sensitive, as I truly felt in going to Nat Congress this month. I felt I was "there" despite not being there, the whole time before my disastrous encounter with the "angry monster" I spoke of.

An emotional stab, in the form of a fierce temper, can hurt a Subud person more than a "normal" person. Hence, at Congress, I was very "open" to harsh felings, (and nice ones), as well as being wary of encountering any, which I did.

Now please stop addressing ME, and address the issue.

People in Subud, especially some with "responsibilities" hurt others, badly, when they, especialy helpers, should know that a Subud person can be more sensitive than others.

No more responses telling me how to deal with it please! I get my therapy at the Theosophy meeting I go to. Some Subud people are just too horrible, except for some, so Helissa, don't get to include yourself in my blanket cover here, and anyone else who doesn't feel guilty about their comment, don't take offence either.

From Sahlan Diver, January 24, 2008. Time 0:8

Bronte,

I think you are right when you say "face the issue". It may be, as the other correspondents were suggesting, that person A is holding up a mirror to person B. It can be useful to recognise that, but the usefulness is quickly going to turn to uselessness if person A then gets so upset that they stop coming to the group for latihan, or stop doing the latihan altogether? Funnily enough the incident I quoted that happened to myself, and the incident that Simon Sturton witnessed happening between Ibu and a lady member, also both involved an inappropriate criticism of the person's latihan, so I sympathise with the upset this can cause.

In my reply to you, I assumed the person you were talking about was an "ordinary member", with no special function of committee or helper. That's why I implied it is difficult to know exactly how to handle that situation because the last thing we want is to encourage helpers or committee to assume a superior position and lecture other members on what is right and wrong behaviour.

However if the person in question is a helper, and the offense is caused to you through their actions in their capacity of helper, then that is a different situation altogether. I can only repeat what I said in my "Blueprint for Change" article, that until we recognise it is normal for people to make mistakes and act badly, and until we accordingly introduce procedures whereby the victims of such behaviour can easily get their case heard, without fuss, it will always be difficult to resolve such incidents.

It seems to me out of place that a spiritual movement should be quick to place the blame on the complainer and so unconcerned to get to the bottom of disputes and get them resolved,

Sahlan

From stefan, January 24, 2008. Time 0:29

"Won't someone notice that it seems OK in Subud for people to tear their brother or sister to bits, then blame the victim? This needs attention."

Hello Bronte.

Point well made and taken

So what should happen when serious hurt is caused by a Subud member? And how might we prevent it happening again in future?

Sahlan pointed out that "one problem we have in Subud is that we are supposedly not hierarchical...in Subud we don't want our helpers to be like a priesthood or our committee to be like a superior hierarchy, so who is going to deal with inappropriate personal behaviour?"

And yet doing nothing is pathetic!

I have two immediate thoughts and want to hear your (and others') suggestions:

a) When a Subud member feels unjustly treated by another and isn't able to resolve it directly with them (s)he should have the right to call a group meeting to express the grievance and to say what they would like done about it. Naturally the other party will have a different viewpoint to air, but this way the helpers and committee are not required to exercise "power". Rather the whole group -as peers and equals - tries to really get to the heart of it. Hopefully this intense, public and time-consuming process would be a learning and would deter someone from repeating insensitive hurtful behaviour.

b) I'm thinking about how to promote among Subud groups basic skills for handling conflict. Maybe we fail to address wrongs when we just don't know to do next.

Some of the simpler tools available from NVC and counselling can be developed by groups who want to communicate authentically (not just to smile and duck out of interpersonal issues!).

Stefan

From Helissa Penwell, January 24, 2008. Time 1:3

Hi Guys,

We need to have better ways to air grievances and resolve conflicts, that's for sure. Most of us could improve in learning how to maintain our personal boundaries and how to stand up for ourselves when we are verbally abused. People too often tend to treat other Subud members like "family" and apparently they aren't too nice to their family members. That's clearly a part of Subud culture that needs changing.

I hope that none of you are saying that a recommendation to use an unpleasant incident as a way to learn more about oneself is in any way "blaming the victim". Not at all! It's more of a silver lining. It's a way to gain power and change the dynamic. When we go in and find the part of ourselves that is reacting so strongly to another person, then we can work with that knowledge to eventually heal any wounds connected with it and transform the energy into something which can give us strength--strength to handle the outer situation. The first thing that happens is that we calm down and stay less reactive. That frees us to act differently with our abuser. We are more open to receiving Guidance and understanding about how we can change things. Sometimes, but not always, our abuser senses the positive change in us and adjusts himself to it, e.g. he senses that we are more in control and he has lost some power. Naturally, some abusers are just crazy and nothing changes them, ah well......... The point is that inward, positive change, like that done in shadow work, is empowering. That's why I recommend it.

Helissa

From bronte, January 24, 2008. Time 3:37

It's almost incestuous here, even if I like it.

Everyone here is being sympatheetic and trying to be helpful

But what are the people in the Ivory Towers doing and saying?

ISC where are you?

Note: For writing about these things, I got told I had written "the most horrible letter he had ever read" by one of the members of the "Royal Families "(real founding member's families) of Subud Australia, so nothing happened, and everyone who'd left stayed out, and Subud hasn't grown.

Why is this?

I've said it all before.

We can fix it, or must I say "you can"

Love to all

From Sahlan Diver, January 24, 2008. Time 7:10

Resolving Disputes

We do need to have procedures in place for resolving disputes, but we first need to distinguish the type of dispute to be resolved.

Stefan suggests holding a group meeting to hear a case between two members who have a personal disagreement. I assume he is meaning for a bad, long-term disagreement that is spilling over and disturbing other members, otherwise, it would surely be overplaying the issue to hold a group meeting as an early step. I know of a case where two members who had a long-term disagreement resolved it just by talking it through openly in the presence of another member acting as an informal moderator. Similarly, cases of members agreeing to test together about a dispute are not uncommon.

My own concern is not with personal disputes between two members, but with what I believe is the much more common problem of disputes that come about through members' actions in their capacity of committee member or helper. Such disputes, if left unresolved, can have a long-term damaging effect on Subud. However, unlike personal disputes, which for resolution first require the agreement of both parties to enter into discussion, these other disputes should be easier to resolve, because it is should be possible to put in place a formal mechanism for resolution that the offending party, in their capacity of helper or committee member, is obliged to go along with.

Such procedures do not need to be overbearing or excessively dramatic. For example, here is a fictitious group notice describing such a procedure:

"Dear Group members, As you know your helpers meet on the third Wednesday of each month to discuss helper issues. We set aside time in these meetings to hear out any member or helper who has a complaint about a helper or helpers, whether it be a complaint about the way a testing session was carried out, some complaint about the conduct of the latihan, a complaint about personal behaviour, or whatever. These discussions are undertaken in strictest confidence. We do not publish their content, but we do hope to obtain a satisfactory resolution to any matter that is raised, and also, if there is a mistake on our part, to recognise and learn from it for the future. As part of the resolution we may sometimes suggest that testing would be appropriate, but we will not insist on testing if you do not wish to test."

I agree with Bronte that it would be good and helpful if ISC would take a lead in this issue, but I also wonder, in a spiritual movement that supposedly values "harmony" above all else, why these simple considerations for the rights and happiness of our fellow members aren't arising naturally at the group level anyway,

Sahlan

From David W, January 25, 2008. Time 6:46

Subud Australia has just passed a draft dispute resolution process, for trialling.

From Hassanah Briedis, January 25, 2008. Time 9:8

Hi, I would suggest that any group considering these issues of conflict resolution would be wise to formulate a policy which is based on researched practice, as I believe is happening in Subud Australia. To do it any other way, for example as is suggested - call a group meeting to air the two sides - is playing with fire.

The reality of an ad hoc procedure is that someone will get VERY hurt. Unless mediated by a really impartial (and experienced) third party, the very common experience is that someone becomes the scapegoat, and there is subtle or not-so-subtle judgement about who is really in the wrong. Someone can innocently and trustingly go into such a group process, and come out totally devastated. I have seen it happen too many times in both Subud groups and others.

Regards, Hassanah (Briedis)

From bronte, January 25, 2008. Time 12:57

The issues have become too personal.

Hassanah, I wish you could contribute, but could also have all the information already provided by the conflicting parties, especially my stories, which need checking with people concerned, including the Chairman of Subud Australia, who surely is to be congratulated for the fact that this initiative has been taken. For decades I have heard this local group being described as a "basket case", and that too I would like to see undone, apart from all the rest.

Subud, I believe has someting to contribute to many people, and I am too ashamed of what I have seen here, let alone what I have experienced, to name Subud to those of my friends and awquiantances who want to know what my "spiritual training" is, and why I can't "move on" from it. That is not how things should be! And where, pray tell, does one "move on" to, from Subud. I firmly declare that there is no where to run!

From Sahlan Diver, January 25, 2008. Time 13:55

You could try remote arbitration as follows:

Each party chooses a representative in Subud they know they can trust not to be prejudiced against their case. The two representatives must have had no involvment in any of the disputes, nor been a member of the group(s) affected by the disputes.

The parties then write to the representatives summarising their view of the history of the dispute as clearly and as succinctly as possible, and set out what they think is necessary to resolve it.

A copy of their grievance is also sent to the opposite party.

Next the representatives discuss together to try to find possible ways forward. As part of their discussions they will also go back to the parties for further clarification, and to put forward tentative suggestions for a resolution.

Hopefully the parties will agree some way forward which can then be implemented. Maybe testing will also be useful at this stage.

I am no expert on conflict resolution, but it seems to me in Subud we need some kind of neutral process for the really bad, long-term disputes where, for whatever reason, justified or not, a locally initiated resolution is not fully trusted,

Sahlan

From Philip Quackenbush, January 25, 2008. Time 19:46

Hi, Bronte,

You said:

"And where, pray tell, does one "move on" to, from Subud. I firmly declare that there is no where to run!"

Well, I just as firmly declare that there are plenty of places to run, if you're really looking. Obviously, the vast majority of people (95-98% "dropout" rate enough of a majority?) who have come to Subud have done so in one way or another, some running screaming for the exits as fast as possible to get away from such a weird organization. I probably would have done the same if I hadn't been assured by reading Bennett's book "Concerning Subud" that it was not what it seemed to be on the outside, after my first encounter with a helper who virtually shouted at me to go away and come back next week, because Bapak was there.

I already told of what I did somewhere on this forum during a "dry spell" in the existence of the local group, when I was free to explore alternatives, since group latihan didn't exist for me or my wife at the time. She seemed to be content with her situation, but I had done latihan faithfully for almost two decades at that point, rarely, if ever, missing a group latihan, and just as rarely doing a solo latihan, so I had basically lost my regular "fix" and could have gone through major withdrawal symptoms from my addiction to the alpha states (and sometimes the theta and even delta states) produced from its practice, but I had fortuitously run across one of the first books to hit the US on qigong (or chi gong, as it was called in that book), and tried it, eventually realizing that there was no difference between its practice and that of the latihan except its outer form(s), the "inner content" being the same. I had a couple of deeper spiritual experiences than I had ever had in Subud at that time from its practice (all that without any specious overlay of worshipping 'God').

Ibu Rahaju stated in one or more of her lectures that Subud was not the only way, it was just an easy way, perhaps the easiest, and so did Pak Subuh. I agree, having found its equivalent in other venues, but in all cases except qigong (and perhaps Osho's cult's use of it, called something like "freaking out and letting go") with some sort of religious or spiritual overtones attached that alter its basic nature in some way. But if you're looking for a particular group setting and aren't willing to look beyond the social milieu of Subud, then I have nothing for it. If I were you (and I obviously am not, except for the fact that there's only One of us here), I would look elsewhere for my "fix" instead of butting my head up against a stone wall for decades (which feels so good when you stop), but who am I to give advice?

Back in the days when I had the fear of God in me (an attitude aided and abetted by my listening to the suggestions given in Pak Subuh's soporific, hypnotizing lectures and, later, by the equally soporific lectures of Ibu Rahaju), I made it a habit to ask if there was anything better than Subud for him to lead me to. Well, I've realized that there isn't anything better, but there are infinite versions and manifestations of it to be had, with or without an imaginary God. Also, realizing that latihan is simply a form of moving meditation, and not necessarily the most effective, I just ordered a free CD from Holosync to try their version of it, which appears to be the most effective version of meditation ever devised, using modern scientific methods to maximize its effectiveness, eventually (within 2 years of average practice, but maybe regular meditators like Subud members could do it sooner) allowing one to instantly go into a delta state at will with full consciousness (known to mystics as a Oneness state). If reminded, I'll let Subud Vision know about what happens to me when I have used the disc for a while. Then maybe I’ll shell out the 180 bucks for their program, which gave the world soccer champs their edge over all their competitors, and is a staple of lots and lots of corporate execs.

Peace, Philip

(Editor's Note: This post has been edited to remove unecessary quotes, spelling mannerisms and incomprehensible initials and to simplify extremely long sentences.)

From Hassanah Briedis, January 25, 2008. Time 22:27

Good on you Philip !!! I love your spelling. I too have found other practices that can give rise to a state like latihan, in my training as a creative arts therapist. Surprised I was. And it felt really good to see people out there happily tapping into a life force, without giving it a name or claiming all kinds of labels for the experience. Just was, naturally, when you connected with your inner life.

My experience with Qi Gung was not a happy one, though I never tried it myself. But a whole group of my colleagues in therapy got into it, and I watched the same thing happen to them as I had witnessed in Subud - a giving up of their own capacity for reason! A gradual conversion to fanaticism of belief, and a separation from others.

Hassanah

From stefan, January 26, 2008. Time 0:6

Hi Hassanah,

I want to respond to your report "I watched the same thing happen to them as I had witnessed in Subud - a giving up of their own capacity for reason! A gradual conversion to fanaticism of belief, and a separation from others."

That must have been the pits for you. I'm guessing that if you told these friends (into Subud or Tai Chi) about your concerns they would have a way of seeing it that made you seem like the only one with a problem.

I feel a bit shocked. I'm wondering if you find most Subud people self-deluded and insular to such an unhealthy degree, or is this the extreme end of the spectrum? Is this fanaticism - do you think - why so few newer members stick around?

I'm wondering now if my wife hadn't left Subud whether I (we) could have become more completely Subud identified. We might always have been saving up for the next congress, longing to be with people who "speak the same language" and finding ourselves more at sea in the big bad world. Is that how it all goes wrong?

What's the remedy for folk who entrench themselves in a narrow idea of Subud?

Yet I noticed that many of the friends I caught up with in August (having not been to a big Subud shebang for 10 years) seemed to have become more "rounded". Less starry eyed or fanciful, work and projects more realistic and integrated (environment, community, non-Subud friends).

How is it that some of us seem to be able to value the latihan and yet keep growing and questioning? I don't mean this as a rhetorical question. What is it that decides if one's autonomy will shrink or develop?

Stefan

From Merin Nielsen, January 26, 2008. Time 0:8

Hi, Hassanah,

Please excuse this question, but are you mixing up qigong with Falun Gong? The first is a largely secular exercise system whereas the second is a religious organisation which claims to incorporate qigong. (Both involve practices that might give rise to states overlapping with latihan.)

Regards,

Merin

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