Subud Vision - Discussion
Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud
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From Helissa Penwell, February 6, 2008. Time 0:36
David,
I just spent some time posting a reply to you, but when I went to copy and paste it to the feedback section it disappeared!!!
Arggggggggggggghhhhhhhhh!
It should be in "drafts", but it isn't. My brain can't retrieve it. Oh well, there's plenty of other topics going on. I'm sure we'll get back to whatever is important at some other time.
Helissa
From Andrew Hall, February 6, 2008. Time 3:59
Hi to everyone,
I found David's pointer to the Paul Stange paper about Sumarah practice to be very interesting. Becoming progressively aware of the shades of feeling, first the physical feelings, then the emotions, than more and more refined feelings, it sure sounds to me like someone who might be describing the latihan.
I have often wondered if, when Bapak talks about thoughts and feelings, whether his cultural background shares the assumptions of the modern Western understanding about the mind and brain, thoughts and emotions. I think most of us just assumed that he did. I mean, we all have thoughts and feelings, right?
I practice tai chi and study Traditional Chinese Medicine. The ancient Chinese did not really make a distinction between mental and emotional functions or between the brain and the heart. It is all called the heart, the "seat of happiness", and is responsible for both thoughts and emotions.
In terms of my own latihan, feeling the blankness of awareness, similar to what Michael Irwin talks about, is not what I experience in latihan. My latihans are usually teaming with activity. This experience of blankness comes to me as I sit quietly before and after latihan. And it is during these times that I have sometimes felt that I receive guidance about my life.
More broadly, my approach to the latihan and other spiritual practices like meditation is to consider them all a technology of the human psyche and nervous system. It is really an empirical question whether a particular spiritual technology or technique works for you or for anyone else. That may sound severe for someone attached to what Bapak says, but I hope that people can find this idea liberating.
For myself, at this point it is more worthwhile for me to read about other people's experiences, their failures and dead-ends as well as their successes, because I can relate to it all.
I cherish the personal stories that people are telling on this page and elsewhere on Subud Vision. I wish that my introduction to Subud and the introduction that applicants now get included these. When we explain the latihan to outsiders and restrict ourselves to quoting Bapak, it does not admit that there are personal differences and approaches in the latihan. I think Hassanah's story is so worthwhile for others to hear. Not to make them fearful, but so they can appreciate that Subud people do not think we have all the answers.
While I'm on this topic, I remember being told at first about how one can receive guidance from the latihan, but the explanation was that guidance came in the latihan, not afterwards. Reading Helissa's story makes sense to me. Suddenly, I wonder about all the times I've racked my brain trying to figure out the meaning about what had happened to me in latihan. Was I barking up the wrong tree?
Finally, some thoughts about meditation for Helissa. I have done and do mantra meditation. In my practice, it is about letting go and letting the mantra appear or sound, then being aware as it disappears and becoming conscious of the stillness behind it. When thoughts intrude, as they do, and I become conscious that this is happening, I do not try to suppress them, I just gently surrender them and return to the mantra. I do not think meditation can work if it is about forcing anything. I think it is plain wrong to say that mediation instructs someone "to concentrate and focus ... in order to still the mind." It is so much more than that.
Lastly, I really have a problem with your statement that people doing latihan can receive a connection with the inner vibration at the beginning while that's the goal of meditators and they may never get there. Really! It's wonderful for those who do the latihan and feel the inner vibration at the beginning but I think it's pretty obvious that this doesn't happen for everyone.
We are all pilgrims on this road together. The divine is within each of us. Subud is one place among many, a place where the door is always open for those who come and just as open for those who leave. I do not want to close any doors, because I can always learn more in this lifetime.
Best,
Andrew
From Helissa Penwell, February 6, 2008. Time 4:52
Sorry, everyone.
Rereading my short comments on meditation, I can see that they do not reflect my overall understanding of it. I wasn't really trying to start a debate about the subject. And please ignore my references to "vibrations"-- I also see that I didn't express myself well there either. I wrote a new, longer post explaining all of that in more detail, but, alas, it disappeared. I'm taking that as a sign that I should bow out of the topic and rejoin you on another, perhaps where I can get off to a better start.
Thanks,
Helissa
From David W, February 6, 2008. Time 6:1
Hey Helissa:
DON'T GO AWAY!
:-)
David
From bronte, February 6, 2008. Time 6:51
Stefan
"But I remember how often when I've been on the receiving end of such heartfelt concern"
I know. Been there. Done that.
I think all the time I am doing it. Always trying to get eveyone else to do things my way. They've done so much my way, my direction. They've kicked their legs in my direction often, as I have received a lot of well deserve kicks in the arse. But then some....
I usually hope my opinions won't hurt anybody, and usually try to complain about other peoples' opinions and actions that have hurt people other than just myself.
As to persuading someone to attend latihan, there have been many attempts to get me back to latihan. I am actually grateful for the successful attempts that got me to congress for a few hours, and to latihan there, no matter that I had to endure yet another kick in the arse fom someone who thought I needed it (because I am mad?????)
I was not, am not, just hoping to do a favour by imploring someone to attend latihan, but to hope that, when it happens, I might be told of the wonderful changes found, and how not-nasty it was. That's how it was for me in latihan, if not all the time with the nice people I met again, or for the first time, such as David W, at congress.
Peace.
Bronte
From Hassanah Briedis, February 6, 2008. Time 7:22
Hey Helissa, don't take it too seriously. I would hope on a freewheeling site like this no-one has to be perfect, no-one has to perform. We're all just 'chewing the fat' and hanging out. David's right, stick around. Hassanah
From Sahlan Diver, February 6, 2008. Time 9:29
This comment is addressed to all who are contributing to this page.
Andrew says: "I cherish the personal stories that people are telling on this page and elsewhere on Subud Vision."
It is clear from the feedback that these personal stories and insights are popular, so I am wondering whether we should set up some special area on the web site for this kind of conversation, to separate it from the discussions about the development of Subud itself. We are currently working on a major revamp of the web site, the deadline for which is 8th March, so I would be interested to hear if people have any suggestions or comments on this idea,
Sahlan Diver
Managing Editor
From Stefan, February 6, 2008. Time 11:47
Hi Sahlan,
I'm a person who thought I had no time or patience for any free-for-all chat site. Surprisingly I'm drawn to the refreshing sense of exploring dimly lit corners together that has ignited this "happening" page. Personal, philosophical, psychological and spiritual musings are offered laced with empathy and humour. What would we call it if it became a dedicated place?
From Sahlan Diver, February 6, 2008. Time 11:58
Stefan,
Why it probably works is because our editing guidelines do not permit a put-down atmosphere, so maybe, because of this, contributors feel freer to talk about experiences of a personal nature.
However, I would like to see a special area created on the web site for this kind of exploration, otherwise there is a danger it might detract from the original purpose of the venture,
Sahlan
From Hassanah Briedis, February 6, 2008. Time 12:3
Hi Sahlan - ha! So we've been caught behaving like a chat site, have we?? Well, I agree with the last posting, I don't like chat sites, but I am very much enjoying the discussion happening here, attached to a SubudVision article. Yes, we have wandered further than the brief of Lilliana's article, but the territory we've strayed onto is that of one (or more)of the other articles.
I understand your diligence in trying to keep the site in order, but I have misgivings about too much order and control, when the discussion happening is positive, and is, in its own way, working through some important issues. I can only suggest that you allow discussion threads to stay attached to articles, as I have a feeling that they may otherwise disintegrate and lose their value. I can't explain it exactly, but it's somewhere in the region of the saying "if it aint broke, don't fix it"
Hassanah
From Stefan, February 6, 2008. Time 12:6
Hi Bronte,
Thank you for accepting my comment about being "helpful" - which was in itself exactly the sort of well intentioned advice that can be so annoying! Maybe this genuine desire to help is one of the things that makes Subud helpers hard to live with! If only we all could get better at listening and hesitate before "helping"...
You say you have received a lot of well deserve kicks in the arse, and that people sometimes perceive you as mad. Your feedback entries show someone who spontaneously expresses thoughts and feelings, and is willing to consider that they may be wrong. This seems very sane and is quite refreshing.
I learned recently from a Quaker that one of their key maxims is:
"consider that you may be wrong".
I don't usually like maxims but find this one impressive.
With all good wishes from Stefan
From Sahlan Diver, February 6, 2008. Time 12:27
Reply to Hassanah
Just to reassure you, the article feedback scheme will remain intact on the new version of the web site, due on March 8th, albeit with many improvements which we will announce at the time. Neither will the editors be interfering with the content of the feedback for the articles. What I was proposing was adding an area where people could initiate discussions on general matters of personal experience, which may only be indirectly related to the published article content,
Sahlan
From Stefan, February 6, 2008. Time 12:58
Hi Sahlan,
When I asked "what would we call it" I wasn't meaning to be facetious. I really like your suggestion and want to find a name (label) that evokes the wide range of personal reflections and insights we're seeing on this page:
From Andrew Hall, February 6, 2008. Time 22:23
Dear Helissa,
I wonder if my last posting sounded severe in the way I responded to your comments about meditation and vibration?
I do have a tendency to take life a mite too seriously.
Reminds me about the two rabbis who were in shul one morning, standing side by side and praying. "Oh Lord, forgive me, I am useless," they intone together, repeating it over and over, bowing their heads each time.
Their voices are loud and carry out through the open door onto the street. Moishe the rag picker is driving by on his cart and hears the constant refrain, "Oh Lord, forgive me, I am useless."
Inspired, Moishe jumps from the cart, runs into shul, stands besides the rabbis, and joins them as they intone 'Oh Lord, forgive me, I am useless."
Startled, the two rabbis look at Moishe and then at each other as Moishe keeps intoning, "Oh Lord, forgive me, I am useless."
One rabbi shrugs and says to the other, "Look who thinks he's useless!!"
Pause for applause.
Helissa, please forgive my prickly sensibility!!! If you want to see a sign in this, may it be my totem animal - a hedgehog - whose sense of wonder and lightness I definitely need more of.
Take care,
Anddrew
From Helissa Penwell, February 7, 2008. Time 0:14
Thanks for caring, you guys.
You know I did start to get concerned that I had pushed some Hot Button Issue, and that I might have accidentally set myself up to be the target for people's pent up anger on this topic. I decided to back-peddle a bit and wrote a nice, long post to that effect. I was fine until the post disappeared; it was so bizarre that I thought I better stop and figure out if there was a lesson lurking there. One lesson-- to be more careful about making off-hand remarks on touchy subjects.
When we aren't face-to-face, it's often so easy to get caught up in our own thoughts and our own agenda that we forget that there's real (sensitive) people reading our posts. I'm going to try and be more aware of that in the future. I really like what Hassanah says about feeling free to be imperfect and make mistakes. After all, that's the way we learn, isn't it? This is such a wonderful opportunity to talk about and listen to meaningful ideas. I wouldn't leave it easily. Thanks again for reaching out; I am touched by your kindness.
Helissa
From Merin Nielsen, February 7, 2008. Time 7:46
Hi, Mike and Philip,
Thank-you both for answering my query, but I still can't see a link between awareness and any essential reality.
Philip -- yep -- sufficiently confusing for me! I think the Copenhagen Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics needs no reference to observation, with lots of QM activity going unobserved as far as Bohr was concerned, though Lockwood's Many Minds Interpretation might be relevant. And that we experience what we choose -- I wish. I realise that these matters are subtle but I find it hard to come to terms with the premise that awareness can somehow determine its own contents.
Mike -- I'm afraid that, to me, such analogies are poetic rather than concrete (which is cool).
'Awareness' seems to be a state that animals and humans can possess, like motion or warmth or hunger or joy. More specifically, I'd suggest that being aware means to be 'aware of' something. For instance, I could well be in some state of awareness of my cat, or maybe even 'mind-like-sky'. Clearly, I don't subscribe to any notion of awareness as fundamental to reality, since it appears to belong to sentient creatures only. Mike distinguishes Self awareness, but 'self' in this context is another peculiar concept that I don't understand.
Best wishes,
Merin
From Philip Quackenbush, February 8, 2008. Time 21:25
Hi, Merin,
Well, my reference to QM may not be entirely accurate. It sounds like you may know more about it than I do. I'm operating from the impressions of a layman. But wasn't it Bohr who said if you think you understand it, you've haven't understood it, or something similar? Nevertheless, when approached from the wave collapse aspect, there seems to be no logical explanation for the dead/live cat paradox other than awareness precipitates the collapse. And cellular awareness (which of course isn't on the cooperative level of the billions of cells in the brain that produce "self"-awareness, located in the left temporal and prefrontal cortex, but awareness, nonetheless) is the only logical conclusion from the self-evolutionary and self-regulating functioning of cells. But that's the value of the "latihan" and similar meditative processes, IMO: they allow such logic to be either bypassed or integrated with the intuitions of the right brain. And I've found that the "deeper" I go into looking for the fundamental nature of the universe, without and within ("Jesus" is reported to have said, BTW, in the Gospel of Thomas, that the "kingdom of heaven" is within and without), awareness seems to be the only unchanging, "real" aspect of existence. I am aware of my existence. Beyond that, as H.L. Mencken pointed out, is folly (his term was funnier, as usual, but that's what pops into my mind; I'd say speculation, or the unknown; I think this computer may be here, but that could easily be a projection of my mind; in practical terms, it is here, of course, but ultimately all I know for sure is that "I" exist, i.e. "I" am aware of existing [but when looking for my "self" it is nowhere to be found]). We know, from physics and biology that we only experience the past; what we "see", for example is what took place in the "outer" world a fraction of a second before we became aware of it, and the stars we see are possibly billions of years in the past; so, the only reality for us is what we're aware of. Enough. If this paragraph gets any longer, I'll be accused of attempting to outdo Henry James, especially since all writing, when you get down to it, involves some aspect of fiction, whether the writer's aware of it or not.
Peace, Philip
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