Subud Vision - Discussion

Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud

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From Mike Higgins, February 3, 2008. Time 4:35

Bronte asked: "But do you stop being a Subud person by stopping doing the latihan? Maybe?

And if not doing "it", are you, or am I, entitled to comment on the value and benefits of the latihan? Or on the flaws of it?"

I think those are reasonable questions. However, personally, I no longer see any difference between my private and public (group) latihan, although there definitely was the first few months I was in Subud. Also, I always thought that the point of any spiritual/psychological training was to become a more integrated, aware individual and there is likely to come a point when the particular training, e.g., the latihan, no longer helps you do that, at which point wisdom would dictate that you let go of it. Of course we are the only ones who can know if and when we've reached that point and we must be relatively free of prejudice or attachment to recognize it. I mean, you don't stay in school forever, at some point you must graduate lest you become a professional student.

Are non-latihaners (is that a word?) entitled to judge the merits or flaws of the latihan? Well, I'd say they're entitled but their opinion about it would be suspect since it is mainly a subjective experience. Rather like someone without biofeedback experience explaining the health benefits and dangers of it. But how much experience of the latihan is enough? And if your response to it and/or to Subud members was primarily negative, can you have an objective opinion about it?

Thank you, Hassanah and Helissa. Helissa, I won't ask why it took you 30 years to take that last important integrative step. It seems we change when we're ready to and no sooner, but in retrospect it is easy to look back and say, "Jeez, what a fool I've been, what took me so long?!" Take care - Mike

From bronte, February 3, 2008. Time 4:58

Please,

No way can I consider that the latihan of Subud is something we can "finish with".

It is not, in my opinion, merely a "school", from which we graduate.

Far, far from it, a hundred billion miles ffrom it!

My own opinion is that it is a nourishment, without which we starve, spiritually, and that most people on this planet are therefore "starving" of the needed spiritual food, hence the fact (at least I can use some "facts" in my writing) that the planet is undergoing a total slow destruction of all life forms, at the hands of these sleeping, spiritually "unfed" human beings.

Most religions deny that they are "un-fed", because THEY provide the link to God that their believers need.

Well, that may be so, but the evidence of our need for a different, and indeed a better, way of living is so clear that evn science knows it, without any help from religion, or mysticism, which is the category in which I place Subud.

So, forgive me if I reject the idea that latihan can become in any way "dispensable". Call it what you will, but we poor human beings are not really adequate in our mental and physical capacities to even survive as we are much longer.

Oh - and just read a few news services if the scientific, pseudo religious opinions I am expressing are not sufficiently convincing.

Meanwhile I think, in Subud terms, I live on dry rations, as an "outsider", but I feel safer from the wolves that way.

From Sahlan Diver, February 3, 2008. Time 11:24

Bronte uses this phrase in one of his posts above:

"But do you stop being a Subud person by stopping doing the latihan?"

I would like to raise some points about the concept of a "Subud person".

Sjahari Hollands was proposing in his Subud Vision article, and in discussion on the feedback pages for that article, that Subud members could identify and agree on a set of "core principles" that describe and/or define the latihan. I would say one such core principle would have to be that a person's progress in the latihan is not under the ownership or control of any organisation. The converse of this is that, in theory at least, any organisation could spread the latihan, not just Subud, because the latihan is, from a spiritual point of view, "untouched and untouchable by human hand".

Therefore, if there is a definition of a "Subud person" then this cannot just be "a person who does the latihan", because how would you then distinguish between a Subud person and someone who does the latihan without wishing to be a member of the Subud organisation.

Does the definition of "a Subud person" then imply a conformity to some set of religious ideals, behavioural rules or cultural norms? If so, this is not good because (a) Subud is not supposed to be a religion or teaching that provides its own set of moral codes or standards (b) the latihan is supposed to develop one's individuality, not create clones.

There is one fundamental way that being a member of Subud and practising the latihan interact and that is that Subud provides the possibility of group latihan through organising rented or purchased accomodation. It is generally reckoned to be better to do latihan with others, though obviously there can be many special circumstances such that it is better for some individuals to do latihan away from a group.

However, organising occasions and places for meetings does not require any special wordly or other-worldy skill. Another organisation or organisations, not just Subud, could equally well do this. So again it seems that Subud should not need to be a significant part of the equation, the important thing being the practise of the latihan and the effect it has on one's life (and after-life).

I am not suggesting that having an organisation or organisations such as Subud is unimportant or unecessary. What I am saying is that we should not allow being a member of such an organisation to intrude into personal matters of conscience and spirituality. By way of illustration, would we talk about being a "yoga-person" or being a "tai-chi person"? True we do talk about "being a Buddhist" or "being a Christian" but those latter are religions with creeds, teachings and so on - the phrase is acceptable. The latihan by contrast is more akin to a technique, like yoga, and additionally claims to involve no teaching,

Sahlan

P.S. The identification in members' minds between Subud and the latihan I suggest comes in a very large part from phrases in Bapak's talk, such as "show that you are truly Subud", which could be taken to imply an inseparable connection between the two, though I don't believe that Bapak meant it in that sense, it was more an exhortation to put the latihan into practise, to use it in a way that would show the evidence of the benefit of the practise of the latihan.

From bronte, February 3, 2008. Time 11:50

Wonderful Sahlan!

I like it.

After all, the many "Subud People" who fiercely claim that title, and fervently support The Oganisation, may not indeed recognise me or others who do not attend "Their" organisation as "Subud People", as I have explained, and found.

And just how many people "out there" are diligently practicing the latihan they received from someone in Subud, whilst having nothing whatever to do with Subud?

I had to interview an applicant for Subud a decade or so ago and we saw nothing of him after he was opened. He never intended us to.

So now I must ask myself "What is it that makes the difference, or the connection, between people who are practicing the latihan", knowing that I must include these many unknowns in my thinking.

And I write this merely to show that I respect the existence of those people, and have a hope that they may also contibute to the benefit of the world, and that they, and I, shall be helped, and possibly improved, by the practice of latihan.

My comments about the everlasting need for the spiritual help in order to be a bettter human being remain unchanged.

From Merin Nielsen, February 3, 2008. Time 12:19

Hi, Sahlan,

Your observation above is extremely important and useful to note. I am a latihan practitioner first, and a Subud member second. I'm very, very grateful that the organisation exists because I can (a) practise the latihan in a group format, which in itself seems beneficial; (b) gain perspective on the latihan by hearing about other practitioners' many and varied experiences of it; and (c) turn to other practitioners for advice and occasionally help with issues relating to the latihan. (Other practitioners include Bapak.) Thus I greatly value the organisation, but it's benefit is based on that of the latihan. Without the latihan, Subud would be nothing, but without Subud, the latihan would still be potentially wonderful. In the future (or maybe even now), there could well be other organisations which provide equally useful or perhaps better access to the latihan, or something similar, and fellow practitioners.

Cheers,

Merin

From Andrew Hall, February 3, 2008. Time 14:5

Hello,

I've just checked this page and read the recent posts by Michael, Hassanah and Helissa. Gosh, I feel so nourished and encouraged from reading these!

I can relate to the personal struggles and efforts they talk about and I feel humbled by the generosity and integrity they show; Michael with his stunningly clear description of how he really "does" latihan, Hassanah with her resolute courage and modesty and whose article started this discussion, and now Helissa who tells us about her struggle with depression and how she "used" the latihan to deal with it.

Forgive me for being so gushy but all this is inspiring to me! I know several Subud members who are living with depression and I hope they can take heart from Helissa's story.

Thank you so much, everyone.

Andrew

From Michael Irwin, February 3, 2008. Time 23:16

I quote the following from a recent group newsletter. I think it has relevance to my last post here.

““Bapak was asked the following question: “Some members have great difficulty in putting aside their minds during the latihan. What mental attitude has to be built in so as to stop thoughts, feelings and desires during the latihan?”

Bapak replied: “It is not necessary for you to prevent thought, just let it be! Because gradually you will experience the separation between thinking and feeling, and then the thinking which is constantly at work will stop by itself.””

If you read my article and my previous posting: “From Michael Irwin, February 2, 2008. Time 18:40” you will know that I have had difficulty putting my mind aside, if the definition of ‘mind’ is what I assume from reading the question above. According to Bapak’s reply I have been working unnecessarily hard. Indeed, I wonder about that possibility often. That is why I mentioned constantly reverting to the need to just surrender the state of blankness and its attendant ‘being aware of being aware’. While pursuing the path described, I have also wondered along the way whether people with other mental characteristics need to do what I do. Perhaps not. Perhaps for me quelling the dominance of endless thinking is my primary obstacle. I don’t seem to have to deal with letting go of emotions or of memories or flights of visual fancy. Others may have those obstacles to letting go and not ‘thoughts’ like me.

I find it interesting that Bapak describes a process of separation rather than quelling. As I said before, learning the difference between my body moving from my will and moving on its own was an early experiment for me. The distinction was clear very soon. I have tried to draw a parallel between how I know that distinction about my body and what I hope will be a similar distinction about my mind. I just hope I’m succeeding and not off on some tangent.

Michael

From bronte, February 4, 2008. Time 0:4

Hey Michael!

I think your understanding has been expressed in the saying "let Go and Let God". I might try it sometime myself I suppose.

With no apologies to all those who dearly disbelieve in God!

From Hassanah Briedis, February 4, 2008. Time 6:40

Hi Michael, I say this with a big grin!! Your problem is that you don't know how to dissociate! When you learn to dissociate, you'll be able to easily do what Bapak suggests is the goal. Isn't it interesting that he actually uses the word I've been saying is operative - separation of brain functions. (Don't make the mistake of thinking that emotions are not a brain function, because they are.) :-)

Hassanah

From Merin Nielsen, February 4, 2008. Time 9:24

For me, the exercise seems to involve 3 simultaneous processes:

1) throughout my being, to let spontaneous activity arise, without cognition of its origin;

2) to sense what occurs, but via no cognitive function such as labelling, characterising, representing, summarising, monitoring, judging, evaluating or assessing; and

3) throughout my being, to refrain from deliberate activity.

During my latihan, I often discover that processes (1) &/or (3) are not happening, but (curses!) to make this discovery means that process (2) is not happening either! Perhaps process (1) includes a fourth, hidden process -- even though I have no cognition of the origin of all the spontaneous activity, maybe there's a further, essential, non-categorised process in which my being just happens to be engaged whenever latihan is occurring in full swing.

Cheers,

Merin

From bronte, February 4, 2008. Time 9:32

Merin

Dare I suggest that the 4th process is what happened when Subud helped me pass my exams.

From David W, February 4, 2008. Time 10:33

Interesting parallel:

QUOTE: “Bapak was asked the following question: “Some members have great difficulty in putting aside their minds during the latihan. What mental attitude has to be built in so as to stop thoughts, feelings and desires during the latihan?”

ANOTHER QUOTE (FROM MEDITATION INSTRUCTIONS):

Sit comfortably. Sitting in a chair is fine. If you are used to sitting on a cushion on the floor—and can do so easily—that is another possibility. Sit reasonably upright, but do not strain to achieve any particular posture. Wear loose, comfortable clothes. Loosen your belt if it is tight. Close your eyes almost all the way, so that a little light enters but you cannot see anything clearly. When thoughts come – let them come. When thoughts go – let them go. If you find yourself involved in a stream of thoughts, let go of your involvement with them. Keep letting go of involvement. Remain uninvolved. Just let go. Whatever happens – let it be as it is.

...

In meditation, you are exposed to the nature of your relationship with thought. A startling idea? It may not have occurred to you that you have a relationship with thinking. At this early stage, you may be shocked at the torrent of thoughts which appear as you attempt to count to 21. It may seem that meditation causes you to think furiously – more than before – but this is illusory. Meditation simply allows you to see more clearly the thinking that occurs constantly. Everyday mind is abuzz with endless thoughts. (To see whether this is true, check your experience periodically through the day.) This onslaught of thoughts – which seems to distract you from meditation – should not be discouraging. It is completely natural. It is the way your mind has been – all your life. The ordinary activity of meditation has simply revealed the ordinary mind that was already there.

...

Initially, in meditation, it seemed that the stream of thoughts was continuous. With increasing experience, thought-addiction diminishes and you begin to notice moments of ‘gap’ between thoughts. When you cease to pursue thoughts – rather than forming a continuous train, they start to appear individually as figures against a background of empty space. During the next few weeks, we will transfer attention from observing thoughts to observing the space within which they arise. This space is initially only visible as brief moments of ‘gap’ or silence. With continuing practice, gaps lengthen. The nature of the space becomes increasingly visible. It becomes evident that this creative space—from which thoughts arise—is always present. Even when thoughts appear continuously you will be aware of the space within which they occur.

From Hassanah Briedis, February 4, 2008. Time 11:6

David, what an interesting description. Thanks! Because of being brought up in Subud, I have never read anything at all about meditation. What you quote here is particularly interesing because it actually explains what the process is and what the goal is. I'm not suggesting it's better or worse than the Subud way of explaining, just different, and interesting.

I think I interpreted the word 'feeling' in Bapak's quote according to its normal usage, synonomous with emotion. It probably refers to 'inner feeling' or 'latihan'. If so, I wonder what the parallel is between Subud's inner feeling and the empty space between thinking, in meditation.

Hassanah

From David W, February 4, 2008. Time 12:4

Hi Hassanah

The word that Pak Subuh used, which gets translated as "feeling", was "rasa". Rasa is a very special, rich word in Java, and Paul Stange has written a paper on its meaning: http://www.sumarah.net/logicrasa.html

I strongly recommend this paper to everyone on this list, in interpreting what Pak Subuh meant by "inner feeling". The paper begins with the concept in general, and moves on to describe how the "logic of rasa" works in Sumarah practice. As some of you know, Sumarah was an early offshoot of Subud. In its early days, Sumarah practiced the latihan. Pak Subuh wrote to Rofé confirming that their latihan was the same as the latihan of Subud. Later, the practice of Sumurah evolved into something else.

Nonetheless, I think that Stange's explanation of how rasa works in Sumarah practice is a far better explanation of what Pak Subuh meant than any of Subud's English translations. Our translations appear to made with little apparent reference to what the words mean in cultural context. Without that context, it's almost impossible to get the meaning right. Stange, on the other hand, is an anthropologist, who really understands the culture from which words get their meaning.

I'm very curious to see what you, Michael, Helissa, Andrew and Stefan might make of "rasa", in terms of describing your own experiences. (Sorry if I missed anyone!)

Here's an extract from Stange:

QUOTE: In Indonesian the word 'rasa' means 'feeling', referring to the physical sense of it and to emotions; in the more spiritually resonant Javanese it also means 'intuitive feeling'. Rasa is at once the substance, vibration, or quality of what is apprehended and the tool or organ which receives it.

In this context the sense of rasa I am concerned with is that of the 'organ' or agent of perception, or if you like the 'function', of 'intuition'. Within Sumarah rasa is considered an organ or constituent of our psychology in precisely the same sense that thought is. In fact it is commonly said that 'mind' is the tool through which we register and process information received through the five senses from the 'outer world', alam lahiriyah, while rasa is the tool through which we apprehend inner realities, that is alam batiniyah.

Sumarah practice begins with relaxation of the physical body and with the stilling of the senses and thoughts. In itself the shifting of attention from outer events and thoughts to releasing the tensions within the physical body implies a shift from thought to feeling. Stillness of the senses and thoughts means, in Sumarah terms, not 'turning off', 'freezing', or 'repression' but rather an open and receptive state within which attention is not focused on sensory perceptions or thoughts. Instead 'attention', the point at which we are aware, is supposed to enter into rasa so that there is not simply increasing awareness of feeling but rather awareness through feeling. 'Feeling' in its turn may in the first instance mean awareness of physical sensation within the body, but that gross level rasa becomes progressively more subtle - it shades through inner physical sensation into awareness of the emotions and ultimately into rasa sejati, the absolute or true feeling which is itself mystical awareness of the fundamental vibration or energy within all life. UNQUOTE

The "space" between thoughts is referred to in Buddhism as the "mind like sky" or "big mind". Thoughts our clouds, which attract our attention, but behind and holding the clouds is the sky, which is both empty and vast. Is "rasa" the "mind like sky"? I think it's dangerous to make such cross-cultural identities too quickly--that's the Western hunger to for reduction and essentialism at work. Better to take each on its own terms, and appreciate them separately. Nonetheless, I think that there are strong--and unrecognised--Buddhistic strands in Pak Subuh's talks.

Compare 'rasa', above, with Jack Kornfield brief essay on "A Mind Like Sky: Wise Attention Open Awareness":

http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1594&Itemid=244

Best

David

From Philip Quackenbush, February 4, 2008. Time 15:56

Hi, Bronte, Hassanah, Merin, David, Michael, et al,

Well, I'm gonna charge in here like a bull in a China shop (maybe a water buffalo or yak, since we're talkin' Eastern here) and suggest that bung Subuh's quote is essentially correct, except when "feeling" is translated from "rasa" it adds unneccesary complication to the process of "latihan" as a form of meditation, as does the assumption (repeat, ASSUMPTION) by bung Subuh, often iterated in his lectures, that what's operating in the "latihan" is the "power of God" from its appearance (repeat APPEARANCE) of spontaneity, whereas the spontaneity is just as determined as other actions by what's known in Buddhism as "dependent origination," and dumping cultural and religious assumptions into the mix, again, I say, reduces the efficiency of the process of "latihan."

If one is to attempt to separate the "forces" involved, then that automatically produces a mental action, because it's the nature of the mental faculty to separate, or analyze, stuff into its component parts, that reduces the effectiveness of the "latihan" in overcoming the sense of separation as the "mind" is set aside (but still "happening" as in all other forms of meditation (which I'll reiterate as much as necessary to get the point across, that the "latihan" IS meditation, too).

Hassanah's point, too, that the emotions are a function of the brain should be written in gold letters above the door of every "latihan" hall, IMO, to get rid of the notion that they're being separated during "latihan" from the rest of one's sense of "self" (again, set aside, but still operable- the whole brain continues to function at all times, but at various degrees of intensity, as seen on brain scans; if it didn't, it would mean part of it had died).

So, Michael, to get back to your concern (or was it Merin's? I'm having difficulty remembering all the points and who made them), if your "latihan" stops manifesting in physical motions that can help the "clearing" process because of the possibility of shifting the awareness from the thoughts and emotions to what's actually happening to your body and keeping it there, at least for a bit, then you could try some of Tony Crisp's suggestions for inducing spontaneous movement in his online book. He's a Subud UK member (or at least was) who was accused of "stealing" the latihan when somebody found him apparently teaching it in his classes before he was officially "opened" in Subud. If they work for "ordinary" people, they should work for cult members as well.

In any case, just take your time in "latihan" relaxing and letting your cares slip down the drain, so to speak, whether you have any manifestations that you have previously taken to be the "latihan" or not. For that, you could resort to Dr. Benson's relaxation response (a non-moving meditation, usually) of repeating a word to keep the "thinking mind" busy, or simply watch your breath without making any effort to alter it, the only form of meditation that the Gotama (Buddha) said works for everybody. Enjoy.

Peace, Philip

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