Subud Vision - Discussion

Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud

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From bronte, January 31, 2008. Time 12:12

Everyone seems to want to see Subud as an objective experience, as far as I can tell. We want to actually see and understand the connection between what we feel as latihan, and the results.

Hence the feeling described by Helissa, which helps her choose the action that follows. And Hassanah seems to rationalise her experiences rather well, I thought.

But I had beliefs before I came to Subud which require me to expect things from an "unknown country", to use a term from an old book on mystical or metaphysical things.

The connection I made between passing my final year exams and the visits to stay outside the latihan premises is not an easy one for me to make, though psychologists or professionals in the appropriate areas may simply say it is the result of some mental or emotional change resulting not from something strange about the latihan, but within my own psyche. Likewise the time I "received" latihan while I was with friends, and found myself making helpful, positive, comments, which fitted a need in the situation, quite recently.

I remain very puzzled by the way Subud people interact so poorly, yet feel always connected. When an ex-member tells me he feels the latihan in my presence, I prefer to look for a more mysterious explanation than sheer rationality.

In all this, I am saying that I think we need to leave room in our thinking and feelings for things in Subud which are beyond any understanding, but are nevertheless real and valuable. We must leave room for the mysterious, even the miraculous.

As well as the plain idiotic.

From Philip Quackenbush, January 31, 2008. Time 22:5

Hi, Bronte,

You said:

"I remain very puzzled by the way Subud people interact so poorly, yet feel always connected. When an ex-member tells me he feels the latihan in my presence, I prefer to look for a more mysterious explanation than sheer rationality.

While being open to experiencing whatever happens to one (does one have any choice in experiencing what one experiences other than the attitude one takes towards the experience?), it seems to me that it's still necessary to question the mysterious and "miraculous" and to label clearly what seems valuable or idiotic. Without such questioning and labeling, it's been my experience that little "progress" is ever made, because one remains in a state of uncertainty and perhaps uselessness, if not a burden, to oneself and others. Eventually, by doing so, much of what remains beyond one's understanding becomes quite understandable.

So, the "latihan", then, can be useful in "clearing out" one's mind, but then how one uses it and what one puts back in it, so to speak (because past experiences will always be with us, despite such "clearing out"), will then be determining factors in whether the "clearing out" has been of much further value.

Also, I think it may be useful here to point out that the "latihan" is only one of many factors in life that may achieve such a "cleansed mind" effect. Products in the body from poor nutrition or toxins can negate much of the clear thinking that might result from practicing the "latihan", for example, and leave one in the realm of what's been called "magical thinking", especially if you're surrounded by so many people that practically eat, live and sleep with that type of thinking, which was so prevalent in the "early days" of the organization in the West. That's why I'm somewhat careful of what I eat or drink after "latihan", since the usual sugary pastries and caffeinated drinks that are often available then can easily "bring one down" from a state of mental clarity and a feeling of physical well being that the spontaneous movements with little or no interference from the conceptual mind (in the frontal lobes of the brain) that the body undergoes can bring about.

These, I think, are some of the factors that are far more likely to determine one's degree of "spiritual" "progress" than any imagined overcoming of Medievally-conceived "nafsus", which conceptions probably hinder more than help such "progress" (I'm reasonably certain that they did in my own case, spending years searching for non-existent qualities in non-existent quantities instead of studying the known characteristics of physics and biology [which have now moved so far beyond what they were when I was born as to boggle the mind; certainly far beyond the Javanese imaginary "nafsus"] to apply to my life).

Peace, Philip

From David W, February 1, 2008. Time 4:24

Hi Andrew

What specific traditions refer to a "Silent Witness"? I'm not familiar with the term, and can't find any reference to it. (Google searches are drowned out by a BBC program of the same name!)

Best

David

From Andrew Hall, February 1, 2008. Time 23:5

Hi David,

I remember the term 'silent witness" from when I was attending a Quaker meeting in the early 1990s, before I joined Subud. There seemed to be an ongoing debate among Quakers that I met about the value of talking about what happened during their worship and just letting it speak for itself. Terms like silent witness, receive, opening, and gathering (among others) had very special, numinous meanings beyond the ordinary meaning that we understand in everyday speech. I came to understand silent witness as a special grace that could be received in your heart.

I'm no expert on Quakers, but this is what I was talking about.

Best,

Andrew

From David W, February 2, 2008. Time 4:40

Hi Andrew

There seem to senses of the "silent witness" in common usage.

One is as a noun, as a component of a person's internal experience, in the same way that Helissa's "innerself" is a component of her internal experience. This sense of "silent witness" appears to come from yoga, to be a translation of the word "sakshi", and to have been popularised by Deepak Chopra.

The Quaker sense is different. For them, "silent witness" is a verb. The sense of "witness" is as in "to bear witness", as in the Christian sense. Silent means literally that: in silence. "Silent witness" is not part of the psyche: it is an act.

A funny story from this Quaker page:

http://www.fum.org/QL/issues/0401/raising_Quaker_children.htm

"We feel the silent witness of our ancestors is not enough for the current generations... The old tradition of expecting osmosis to carry a vital faith from one generation to the next will not work. One of our favorite family stories is of our learning from our two-year-old that religious instruction didn't happen by osmosis. He told us that he thought silent grace was to cool the food."

Best

David

From Mike Higgins, February 2, 2008. Time 6:14

David W. asked you, Hassanah (Briedis), the question I would have asked about your response to Helissa Penwell's report, to which you replied: "If you look at Helissa's description, it's not so much about 'being in latihan' as about using the heightened awareness that the latihan can develop, to monitor responses to one's environment, one's decision-making, one's interpersonal interactions, and so on."

Hassanah, With all due respect, this statement seems completely contrary to the conclusions you reached in your article. In the article, you described dissociation as (1) a means of restricting or shutting off ones thoughts and feelings (which sounded unhealthy). Now you are implying that dissociation (i.e., the dissociative practice of the latihan) can (2) help one develop a heightened awareness that has constructive effects. Which is it: #1, #2, or both? Thanks - Mike

From Merin Nielsen, February 2, 2008. Time 8:30

I'm butting in with reference to stuff 6 months old, but on 2007-07-08 I submitted feedback on Hassanah's article that to me seems relevant to Mike's query to Hassanah; re possible benefit of dissociation.

Merin

From Hassanah Briedis, February 2, 2008. Time 10:57

Hi Mike, again, the confusion is understandable, and comments can seem contradictory, because, as both David and Merin responded back last July-August, the latihan and its (hypothesized) dissociative aspect can be both constructive and dysfunctional. However, your description of what I said is not quite correct. I didn't describe dissociation as 'restricting or shutting off one's thoughts or emotions'. I describe dissociation as being a disconnection between thought and emotion - well, actually between identity, memory and consciousness, as if the wires that normally connect these brain functions together into one integrated circuitry are disconnected.

I also say in my article that the latihan can, as a consequence of this dissociative characteristic, be used dysfunctionally to distance from difficult emotions, and avoid things that need to be dealt with. It can also lead to judgemental attitudes, such as 'cleansing latihans' being interpreted as being about the other's heavy stuff, rather than owning one's own.

I've checked through my article, and nowhere do I suggest that doing latihan was all bad, in fact I mention that it protected, and possible saved me. But that it also perpetuated the dissociation, making it impossible to heal from my psychiatric disorders.

I think Subud people, and other people who practise spiritual exercises, develop some very useful and positive qualities and life skills. My concern is when these powerful mystical practices are over-used to a point where dissociation becomes a habitual condition, and, as David has pointed out, can become addictive.

Happy to talk further about the ways in which these life experiences assist a healthy and functional lifestyle in the present, since I think that's one of the agendas behind our discussions on this site (though there are others of course). Hassanah

From bronte, February 2, 2008. Time 13:17

Dear Hassanah, and others,

I wonder if anyone can rightly "blame" Subud for anything.

If we joined Subud, we did not want to entirely have any of the alternative lifestyles, religions, patterns of thinking, that the world offers.

Possibly because we already had disassociative behaviour.

If Subud in any way anabled us to express this more fully, it may not be right to "blame" it for some harm.

If we found it contribute to our coping, then we have something ot be grateful for.

My story of my school days, which I did not mention included failing my first year at secondary scvhool, obviously indicates tht I brought problems to Subud, and my writings, I hope, suggest that Subud helped me cope, just like religion helped me cope, somehow, with the death of my mother when I was five, and the consequent marriages of my father etc.

I may complain about Subud people calling me "mad" as happened last month.

But I am not going to blame Subud for all my faults, nor for the faults of the behaviour towards me and each other by people who fall down in their efforts to be the best human beings they can.

And don't many Subd poeple hope to be that?

From stefan, February 2, 2008. Time 17:34

Hi Hassanah,

I'd very much like you to explore and say more.

I was seeing a psychologist when I was aged 4 (I seemed to dwell in a fearful and tearful world of my own) and I think that a degree of disassociation, coupled with an intense fantasy life was my way of surviving childhood. However the fantasy element was out of control and often resulted in nightmares.

My teenage mood swings and perception shifts were intense too. I became good at "appearing to fit in" which is probably why I wasn't advised against being opened in Subud (though bordering on bipolar and shizo, I suspect),

At the time I was opened I firmly believed that the material world was unimportant (I hadn't a clue about self-care or money and rarely even washed!). I have always thought that Subud helped me find a path towards a more grounded sense of reality in which I was less afraid of organising my life. However, thinking about your article, I also see a resonance with my dissociative habit. My yearning to transcend the seemingly crass and painful world of matter had become a spiritual longing.

I was resistant to hearing any advice from Subud's founder (or anyone, in fact) but after a while Bapak's way of looking at things helped me to see a connection between material mastery and spiritual exploration. It had never occured to me before.

Bronte, I'm grateful you shared something about your childhood, and feel my heart going out to the five year old grieving for his parent and having to accommodate uninvited adults in your home life. When you express understanding for those who behave badly I'm heartened too. Are you saying that it's the inappropriate behaviour that needs to be confronted, while attempting to understand rather than blame the individuals who act hurtfully?

Best wishes from Stefan

From Michael Irwin, February 2, 2008. Time 18:40

David,

You asked me: "For instance, when you say "no thoughts", I'm guessing you mean something like "no internal monologue". But is my guess right? "No memories" can easily conjure up an image of someone who can't remember where they are. You clearly still have that kind of memory in the latihan.”

You are, I think, referring to my sentence: “In reference to the latihan, for me the meaning has come to mean the direct experience of nothing or blankness (no thoughts, no memories, no visualizations) and with that an awareness of being aware or the knowing experience of nothing.”

If you want to substitute ‘no internal monologue’ then I am tempted to say OK so long as that phrase includes visualizations by invention or by memory. Perhaps my description of ‘nothing or blankness’ needs sharpening. If I look at an artist’s canvas before the artist has touched it with paint then nothing is ‘on’ it in spite of the fact that the surface of an unpainted canvas can certainly be seen. The visual content of a blank (black canvas) inside my head can be observed in the sense of being looked at and knowing that there is no content to comprehend. Nevertheless I know that the act of looking is taking place just as I retain the sense of my continuity – memory in that sense. If you define thought as including that awareness of the blankness, then that is not what I mean. If I was unaware of that blankness, I would be unconscious. All that is left then is being aware of being aware. The blankness is, however, palpable, that is, there. The problem in latihan for me is getting to that state of being aware of being aware and then sustaining it while – and here is the latihan bit – also letting it go without falling into those freshly emerging and attention grabbing thoughts, visualizations and memories. It took me a long time to get to the point where I could sustain blankness, even longer to sustain paying attention to the fact that I was paying attention to that blankness. That process requires ‘will’. Now the problem is, having got some control over that process, how do I let that control go so that my will-less attention can turn to whatever emerges while continuing to observe passively and without comment (thought). I have not yet succeeded and it may be a false path. However, I once felt that way about sustaining blankness, something I can now do. The whole exercise seems like a combination of Russian dolls that are themselves magnetic bottles.

By the way, in all the above my awareness of my physical body is not blank. It is there. But just as I learned early on to let it do what it wanted without any controlling comment, that attitude of allowing and being in its movements informs my attitude to the more difficult task of rejecting attachment to thoughts, visualisations and memories and perhaps permitting something to emerge from the blank of those very, now passively observed, intuitions, understandings and perhaps pictures. That is my, perhaps misplaced, hope. Significant testing results, for me, are most likely to be the experience of those intuitions, understandings and pictures.

Now, the question is, “Is what I’m doing the latihan?” There is no question in my view that the result of doing the latihan in the way I describe has produced benefits. I am more serene at my core even when having a bad day. I can quickly refer to myself when I need to by which I mean that I can go quiet and blank briefly as needed to ‘center’ myself. And I have less need than before, though the need was never strong, to resonate with the state or activity of others around me. I can more easily remain detached but not shut off from others. All the internal stuff that life demands we experience is still there but I can more often than before, observe it rather than be taken over by it, however imperfectly. So if those are not delusions – and they may be – then doing what I think is the latihan is worth it.

I found the previous words of Hassanah Briedis resonated with my understanding: “…a grounded sense of self, combined with an ability to be present in the moment, at peace with oneself…”. Also: “…long and hard work on myself…” For me the latihan is hard work. “…the ability to instantly switch into a self-reflective or self-aware mode, and the ability to instantly move from a cluttered mental state to a quiet and still state…”

Michael

From Mike Higgins, February 2, 2008. Time 19:26

Hassanah said: "I've checked through my article, and nowhere do I suggest that doing latihan was all bad..."

True, you did not, but you did say that dissociation has a dis-integrating effect, i.e., is not conducive to psychological integration. This is contrary to your statement (in your response to Helissa'a report) that the latihan may help one develop a heightened awareness that leads to greater integration.

Perhaps if one is not psychologically integrated (true of most people?), the latihan has the effect of reinforcing or promoting one's current neurotic condition, and if one

is relatively integrated psychologically, the latihan may become a tool for greater integration?

So then, as Bronte suggested, this becomes problematic: if you can't live without the latihan, it's a warning that's it's become a crutch rather than a productive tool for you (the plowshare becomes a self-immolating sword). Unfortunately, the people who have a negative (counterproductive) attachment to the latihan are the very people who are most likely to promote it and become involved in Subud's organizational politics, ergo Subud's present condition? Thank you, Hassanah.

Helissa (Penwell), if you're still there, I have a question for you: You said you'd been doing the latihan for 40+ years. How long had you been doing it before you developed the "inner knowingness" you described? Was this something that developed very gradually over time or what? Thank you.

From Mike Higgins, February 2, 2008. Time 19:41

To Michael Irwin: Michael, I think you would find the following book to be instructive, it is congruent with your experience of the latihan: 'The Philosophy of Consciousness Without an Object' by Franklin Merrell-Wolff (former Stanford Math professor). The book is based on his direct experience of transcendent states of consciousness. I found it to be very helpful. His other book on the subject, 'Pathways Through to Space', is good too.

From Hassanah Briedis, February 2, 2008. Time 22:8

I'm struck by what seems to be a contradiction, one that is expressed by either pointing out seeming inconsistencies in my descriptions of experience, or by expressions of confusion about 'whether Subud is good or bad or both together'.

To try to make sense of my own apparent inconsistencies I've looked back over the previous posts. Helissa, in her original description, used the word 'latihan' to describe the influence that she feels has led to her sense of harmony with and within self. I wouldn't use the word latihan any more, since I don't do any 'stand up' latihan and haven't for 16 years. But I have a keen sense of an inner self that has been trained and developed both by earlier latihan experiences and later therapeutic experiences. Stefan refers to it as his 'inner feeling' and also describes having learnt through doing latihan to be able to 'let go'. He also comments that the latihan seems to have helped him learn to access his intuitive self. I think it is quite useful to use the word 'training' as part of the description of what the latihan of Subud is, because it does train us to be able to move quickly between different states of consciousness, and this is a useful skill. I'm not saying anything controversial here, because Bapak frequently referred to it as a training. If it is a training, then it means that its function is more complex than simply a passive 'receiving' requiring no personal input or responsibility.

What I can say now, is that I am aware of 'inner movement', a sense of an inner presence or heightened sensitivity, as well as an inner calm and quietness, and that these states exist without my 'being in latihan'. When asked earlier about being contradictory, I stated that the work I have done on myself (therapeutically) is at least partly responsible for the peace I now feel. What percentage of the strength and self-awareness is due to the years of 'doing latihan', I don't know, but I believe that the latihan training did have some good effects. It's just that it perpetuated such an imbalance in my life that it became in the end more of a liability than a help.

So, to try to answer your puzzlement, Mike, my response to Helissa stated : "If this inner-outer feedback system is combined with careful self-awareness, one has an excellent system by which to live." The inner-outer system I was referring to was Helissa's description : "how my innerself is training my thinking and emotions to work in harmony with it." What I like about Helissa's description is that it places the responsibility for well-being firmly within the self, and describes a pro-active attitude to self observation and self-correction. It is what I would call an integrated approach, because it combines the spiritual maturity with psychological maturity.

These things are not easy to put into words, especially in this feedback box which is separate from the feedback posts. Don't know how much sense this makes!

Hassanah

From bronte, February 2, 2008. Time 23:5

Dear Hassanah,

I recall, only a few years ago, volunteering to help our (locally based) National Chairman with the national Address list. She accepted, and I was given some information to work with. All this can be shown by emails still in my possession. However, the local group 2 "official" refused to co-operate, saying that I was "no longer a Subud member".

Well, in administrative matters, the must be tasks that require non-members to assist sometimes, and computer work like address lists can fit in that category.

But, as many a person has ponted out, you don't stop being a "Subud Member" merely by ceasing to attend the group latihan.

But do you stop being a Subud person by stopping doing the latihan?

Maybe?

And if not doing "it", are you, or am I, entitled to comment on the value and benefits of the latihan?

Or on the flaws of it?

I know, having had my second group latihan in 9 years, at congress last month, that my latihan is as real for me as ever, and as strong.

And I must, just must, be amazed at the statement that you "have not done a real stand-up latihan in 16 years."

Please, I beg you, I implore you, go again to just one group latihan, THEN tell us all how it was.

I feel almost like an alien writing about my Subud and my life experinces. But I do keep my personal latihan alive.

I have even had latihan with at least one other member about once a year on average. One of those, in

Brisbane in August '06, seemed to free up something in me that stayed "better" ever since. But an indefinable "something".

The people here may think of me as having "left", but I could never have been less "left" the Subud latihan if I'd just been opened.

And I certainly do not feel like any outsider intruding into the life of Subud people, with all my comments, hopefully searching out the good, and the reality of whatever latihan is all about, for anyone.

I want to comment on some things concerning the latihan itself, but please forgive me a little if I first address the fact that I am (mildly) shocked to read that Hassanah has not participated in group latihan for so long. At least, in her case, she does not have to talk of having doors closed to her, or being taken out in the kitchen and given a reprimand by the helpers for even trying to attend group latihan. That is an interesting experience to go through.

From Helissa Penwell, February 2, 2008. Time 23:37

Hi Mike,

I remember that for about the first ten years after being opened I used to go through my day and periodically stop and check in with myself to feel the latihan, to feel whether I was staying on track, or to receive Guidance. That became easier and more natural over time until about ten years ago, and then there was a significant change. At that time I made the BIG decision to take steps to overcome the nagging depression which had been following me the whole of my adult life. It was pretty clear by that time that waiting for the latihan to take care of it wasn't working! I had some skills to tackle the problem myself since I graduated with a M.A. in clinical psychology and maintain an active interest in the field. I also get a lot of clear Guidance that comes in words and pictures (kind of like having my own built-in therapist). I put myself on an intense self-help reading program to get some ideas about how I could help myself become happier. I was already on a walking program, but I made improvements in my diet and added some supplements known to affect brain-chemistry, e.g. certain amino acids. I realized I had far too much negative self-talk, most of which was repetitious and untrue. Books on cognitive-behavioral therapy and Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now" and others helped me become aware of why I needed to turn down the noise. Having done latihan for 30 years gave me the ability. I also tested about the root causes of my negativity. I was brought face-to-face with painful childhood experiences that had affected my whole outlook on life. I was lead to experience a life-changing technique to heal these experiences-- a kind of latihan/testing session which would start with me remembering the painful experience and end with me having a new, wonderful healing one (as though I were reliving the past and rewriting it). Spiritually I began to see how the forces that made up my personality were contributing to my sadness. Specifically I realized that it was my dog-force that was the source of my depression, and to overcome depression I had to take more control of that particular energy. I'd been made aware of the forces and had been learning about how they functioned for a long time, so dealing with this was within my ability (not easy, but do-able). Of course I continued to do latihan regularly throughout this process. I received nonstop Guidance about which books to read and what changes to make. I felt the force of the latihan moving through the whole of the process, speeding it up and facilitating the break-up of old habits and creating room for a new personality to form. It truly seemed to me at the time that the old adage "God helps those who help themselves" was true. Once I set my intention and began to do the work to help myself become a happier, healthier person, then I was helped at every turn, often in seemingly miraculous ways.

So, the result of this psychological odyssey is that I am no longer depressed. If I do get sad, then I recognize the signs and have skills to turn it around and prevent myself from slipping into The Pit. But, even better, I am much, much quieter in my thinking and feelings. That quietness has allowed me to be more self-aware so that I can practice using my innerself to provide feedback concerning the thoughts and feelings that I do have, as I described in my previous post. I agree with Bapak's observation that we can't speed up our latihan. What I did was work to remove the kinds of thinking and emotional reacting that were obstacles to my receiving, so that I can maintain a quieter and clearer state on an ongoing basis.

Helissa

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