Subud Vision - Discussion

Hadrian Micciche - Both Simple and Complex

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From Stefan, February 7, 2008. Time 8:0

Hi Philip,

My spinning latihans were back in 1971. My mind is generally more user-friendly these days, but it's always good to hear what helps people restore their own calm. I am still emotionally sensitive (heart like an ocean on a really good day, but more often like a puddle!) So I'm very grateful to have - in addition to latihan - a number of simple things that help me when I'm tightening up. One of them is connecting with my cats and writing cat poems, though I can't expect the same thing to work for everyone else.

Good to hear what works for you. I've done a little Chi Kung, Tai Chi, Yoga and other things. So far they haven't "stuck" in the way latihan has with me, though I realise I haven't gone deeply into them.

Stefan

From Philip Quackenbush, February 8, 2008. Time 21:41

Hi, Stefan,

"Good to hear what works for you. I've done a little Chi Kung, Tai Chi, Yoga and other things. So far they haven't "stuck" in the way latihan has with me, though I realise I haven't gone deeply into them."

Well, like Siti Rahayu once said, it's a easy "spiritual" path compared to most. When I think of the advaitins racking their brains over Sanscrit terms to gain enlightment through knowledge (it can be done, but, Oy, what a way), I'm grateful that I didn't have to "seek" that long to get rid of my major confusions about life, though, like the plaque that was hanging on the wall in the house I grew up in said, with a carved image of a bearded rabbi, maybe, "Ve git too soon oldt, und too late schmart". And the "standing on stake" qigong I did was really effortful, but worth it in demonstrating to me that (dare I say it in "mixed" company?) I am "God" (which I didn't fully realize at the time, and probably still haven't in its "fullness"), which is sometimes hard to remember as I go through through the daily illusions that my consciousness creates for my amusement and evolution of my overall understanding of Myself. But, then, in the non-dual sense, you're just as much "God" as I am, and so is everbuddy else.

Peace, Philip

From Stefan, May 5, 2008. Time 19:51

Helissa, I just reread this discussion and want to come back to one of your postings (Jan 4, 2008)

Helissa:
Several years ago I wrote the brief introduction which is on the Outreach cards that were adopted by Subud USA. I can tell you from that experience that there is no such thing as "a neutral introduction" to Subud.

Stefan:
After numerous determined attempts and much discussion I've reached the same conclusion

Helissa:
The biggest issue that members made a fuss about was the word "God"--some people didn't want to use it at all and others were adamant that any intro not mentioning God would be meaningless. We temporarily got around that by issuing two cards, one using "God" and one without, so people could have their pick. I also used "Great Life Force", but I'm sure that some people don't like that either. And besides all of that, I need to mention that trying for "neutral" often results in bland, so that you don't capture the reader's interest; plus some readers would only join something that they feel is from God, while others are turned off by that. Sigh.

Stefan:
Yes indeed, and every word has emotive connotations that draw in some people and scare off the rest. Words such as "spiritual", "soul", "transcendent", "inner-self", "numinous", "dynamic meditation", "transpersonal"... yet avoiding all iffy words it's hard to convey anything about the depth and potential of the latihan. Sigh

Helissa:
What I envision is something like a website where we would introduce Subud and say all of that-- that there's no agreement among us even as to what Subud is. The only agreement seems to be that doing the latihan is beneficial.

Stefan:
Er... do we even agree on that? I think it's fair to assume that most members either perceive a benefit or hope for one. The many who have fallen away might see it differently.

Helissa:
Perhaps we can agree upon a few facts, such as names and dates and general history;

Stefan:
Option A: Subud came to the world as a result of a unique spiritual awakening by one man, who discovered he could pass on his experience. He described it as a gift from God to train the soul.
Option B: (as researched in David Weeks's "History or Myth")
Many Javanese holy men claim to have received illumination in the form of a ball of light decending into them ("Wahyu"). Spontaneous movement, perceived as emanating from the "inner-self", has also long been practiced in Java. One man who had received Wahyu was invited to the west to pass on such spontaneous movements and the international association that resulted is called Subud.

Helissa:
Let a whole bunch of people each say what Subud means to them, and then post it all so that the readers can see for themselves that the latihan is a unique experience for everyone that does it and that each person is free to form their own opinions about it.

Stefan:
Agree strongly. This would be an antidote to the tendency to emphasise the founder and his words and ideas, which (I believe) currently deters so many members and potential members. Rather than ressembling a cult of Bapak, Subud will be seen to empower people to develop autonomy and express themselves as individuals. What'll we do to see this come to fruition?

From Philip Quackenbush, May 6, 2008. Time 7:19

Hi, Stefan and Helissa (and David),

Y'all said,

Helissa:

Perhaps we can agree upon a few facts, such as names and dates and general history;

Stefan:

Option A: Subud came to the world as a result of a unique spiritual awakening by one man, who discovered he could pass on his experience. He described it as a gift from God to train the soul.
Option B: (as researched in David Weeks's "History or Myth")
Many Javanese holy men claim to have received illumination in the form of a ball of light decending into them ("Wahyu"). Spontaneous movement, perceived as emanating from the "inner-self", has also long been practiced in Java. One man who had received Wahyu was invited to the west to pass on such spontaneous movements and the international association that resulted is called Subud.

===

While Option B is clearly more historically and culturally accurate, it would be even more accurate to put "holy men" in quotes, since it's only assumed by some that they're holy (whatever that may mean to someone).

Peace, Philip

From Luthfi Dixon, September 30, 2008. Time 19:23

Having just done my usual 'sort-of' Ramadan (mostly breaking fast not later than 3p.m., often earlier), I find that, also as usual, certain perceptions are heightened, and I have certain experiences.

What does seem very clear to me is that the 'inner Subud' - well, that may seem silly, because Subud by its very nature is 'inner', but I'm talking about the inner spiritual reality, not ideas and theories - is very much Islamocentric. Now, you may be appalled by that, because Subud is open to everyone, and you may, indeed, be a Buddhist.

However, those that have full inner consciousness in Subud (and they, like it or not, form an unseen but definite kind of 'Illuminati') are totally, utterly, completely normative Islam. If you ever have inner experiences where you clearly meet such people, whether it is Bapak or someone else, the way that Subud is inwardly closely tied to an Islamic reality becomes utterly clear.

I'm not saying that's right - it's just reality. And, I may add, it is a totally uncompromising reality.

Now, you may argue about it as much as you like. I have sometimes argued about it (using my mind), with such people. But it's quite clear that I am using my mind and emotions, whereas they ain't.

Yes, someone like David Week will doubtless say that this is all just an illusion. But then he thinks anything 'spiritual' is an illusion. The basis of Subud is inner experience, nothing else. Very few people understand the process of getting properly conscious from your inner self, which is the whole point of being in Subud, otherwise we might as well just continue debating from our minds till infinity and beyond. However, anyone who honestly tries to talk about the process of getting conscious usually gets slated on a forum like this - because the whole standpoint of the forum is based on examining Subud from the mind, not the inner. I prefer, in general, a mix of the two approaches, in trying to find the truth about Subud matters. However, to actually get somewhere inwardly, the mind is of no use whatsoever. And when you do start to get somewhere inwardly, you'll notice Islamic 'references' everywhere.

From Andrew Hall, September 30, 2008. Time 20:41

Hi Luthfi,

Congratulations for entering the Lions den! Here on the final night of Ramadan and all!!

I hope that anyone talking about their own experiences and understanding here in the Subudvision forum gets a patient and generous hearing. Being human, Subud members can rush to judgement, our egos can get involved, and misunderstandings can happen.

From my perspective, I think the most common fault is that we often don't hear what others are saying, and the person talking feels ignored.

That being said, I disagree with you that you are unwelcome. If you want to use Subudvision to (your words) honestly talk about your experience of getting conscious, then I think you will find a mostly willing audience. You will certainly find people who want to talk about their own experiences, who disagree with you and who appear rude, but there are kindred souls aplenty.

When you claim something about Subud, I can appreciate it is real for you, but you do not speak for me.

I am referring to your perception that the inner Subud is Islamocentric, that those who have full inner consciousness in Subud are "totally, utterly, completely normative Islam" and your claim that if we have inner experiences about such people, it will show this Islamic reality.

I want you to know that this isn't my experience in Subud. My Subud experiences that mean the most to me are when I have experienced or received compassion, forgiveness, gratitude, praise and love. And I experience these in a way that is very real and far broader than just me.

I agree with you that using just our mind to talk about Subud may miss something important. One thing that does strike me about Subud culture is the aversion to using the mind at all. If someone has a complaint or a thought, my Subud brothers usually dismiss it as coming from the mind. I think this diminishes us and I personally don't like it. I feel it infantalizes people.

Just another voice in the choir.
Andrew Hall

From Luthfi Dixon, September 30, 2008. Time 22:39

Hi Andrew,

Just typed a lengthy reply, but when I sent it the whole thing was deleted because I forgot to put my email address in.

Never mind. Anyway, I wouldn't disagree with the compassion and love stuff you spoke of. However, from my perspective, I believe that inner experiences can also wreck your life, no matter how pleasant they sometimes seem to be, simply because they can be so out of kilter with your outer life. When there is no witnessing whatsoever of what you experience - then that way lies madness.

'Tis an unfortunate fact that Subud is a recipe for schizophrenia: this does not mean, however, that the latihan is not real. And people who don't have the latihan doubtless have plenty of unavoidable recipes for schizophrenia through the situations they encounter in their lives. In any case, there is a strong element of mental healing delivered by the latihan; perhaps one of the principal raisons d'etres of Subud is the manner in which it soothes the mind, which is constantly assaulted by the materialism of the outer world - a materialism which drags most people down to hell, frankly.

There is also a strong elemnt of secrecy surrounding everything to do with the inner, and that, too, is perhaps unavoidable to a very large extent; however, Indonesians are also by their nature secretive. Anyway, most of us will never have a clue as to what is really going on, lol.

From Webmaster, October 1, 2008. Time 4:46

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From Philip Quackenbush, October 1, 2008. Time 7:11

Luthfi Dixon says:

"What does seem very clear to me is that the 'inner Subud' - well, that may seem silly, because Subud by its very nature is 'inner', but I'm talking about the inner spiritual reality, not ideas and theories - is very much Islamocentric."

Well, while it's a no-no in Subud circles to be contrary, I'm gonna break the "rules" here and do just that - It's seemed clear to me for a long time that the "outer" Subud is very much Islamocentric. Its terminology is largely a corrupted version of what is found in Nakshbandi Sufism, and following the suggestions contained in its language (all languages have inherent types of suggestion by their very structure [try not using the verb "to be" for a day or two, for example, and note the effect on your perceptions and attitudes]), one is bound to come up with experiences that relate to that terminology, hence, for people really "in to" the "latihan" as supposedly "explained" by the founder of the cult, one limits one's experiences to that which one accepts as an "explanation" for them.

To the extent that one can be detached from such suggestions (by looking "outside" the cult for other views of the process, for example, which often turn out to be more accurate and "enlightening" than what the founder has said, IMO) it becomes possible to free oneself from the Islamocentric attitudes that often prevail in the cult. Without changing the structure of the organization, it is largely impossible to so free oneself, because the structure determines the boundaries of the experiences that can be had by following the forms and assuming the attitudes prevalent and dominant in the cult, just like a cookie cutter determines the shape of the cookies that are cut out of the dough, which may be much greater in extent and/or amorphous initially.

This is not to say that there's anything inherently "wrong" with following the generally-Islamic forms and attitudes that prevail in Subud, but by being aware of the inherent limitations of such an approach, it becomes possible to go "outside the box" when one is ready for it. Otherwise, a "latihan" practitioner is likely to remain "stuck" for long periods of time before those attitudes can be shed or altered appropriately.

Peace, Philip

From Stefan Freedman, October 1, 2008. Time 9:36

Philip, when you use "the cult" to refer to Subud is this meant as a a provocation? It doesn't explain why it's so easy to express dissent or to rebel (as many of us are doing) and still be welcomed and liked in Subud circles.

This website, which welcomes critique on all the cultish aspects of our organisation, is gaining credibility and forms the basis for a recent WSA report, asking members and groups to evaluate Subud's norms and see how we might evolve ourselves.

Absolutely agree about "outer" Subud having Islamic tendencies - Ramadhan, selamatans, many refs to "Almighty God" etc. However a growing number of members are expressing an uneasiness about our inherited culture, with a suspicion that this is a factor in Subud's lack of success in gaining or keeping new members. Not even practicing Muslims are attracted by "Sublam". It really is up to us (grass roots)to broaden Subud so that the latihan hall becomes a welcoming environment for freethinkers, agnostics, Hindus, Pagans etc.

I like your perception that our founder's Islamic roots created a tendency for people to experience and communicate their spirituality in Islamic terms, though this too is being widely questioned now with a view to free us up and move our culture forward.

Luthfi, I wonder if that's what you meant about Subud being "inwardly" Islamic? My latihan (and the vocation that has sprung from it) takes me in very different directions from Islam. It draws me close to aspects of Buddhism (compassion, equanimity), Paganism (spirituality in nature, appreciation of cycles of renewal), Hindu -ism (accepting destructive as well as the sustaining aspects of Divinity), Taoism (the wisdom of paradox, the need for balance) and humanism. Along with this, a growing distaste for the social control elements of most religious practices.

I can believe and accept that your latihan moves you in Islamic ways but (like Andrew) can't confirm that "inner Islam" describes my unfolding prompted by the latihan. I have to question your assumption that what you experience applies equally (if we did but know it) to all sincere, longterm latihaners.

Stefan

From Luthfi Dixon, October 1, 2008. Time 10:22

Hi Stefan!! How was South of France? You lucky dog (a typical Sublam greeting). And Halim - glad to see you are still alive, your sudden disappearance on SubTalk seemed most uncharacteristic, but it's clear all the action has transferred here.

Most of my replies are delivered instantly, off the cuff, in a typically Sublam fashion. I agree completely about the Sublam baggage, Stefan - and I am also convinced you will never get rid of it. It amused me that, in the local latihan a few nights ago, every man present (except one, who never sings or says anything, and never has done, but then there's always one - and a very nice chap he is too, I might add) was singing, muttering, groaning etc :Muslim words and/or phrases. Yet none of us is a Muslim per se, and indeed one or two of us might be regarded as somewhat anti-Muslim in many respects. Now if that is not evidence of the Islamocentric nature of the inner Subud reality, I dunno what is. I already anticipate Halim's reply, and let me say immediately that I dismiss it without reservation, lol. No, Halim, it is NOT because they have read too many Bapak talks and are regurgitaing it in the latihan. They are saying these Muslim words and phrases because they are prompted to do so from their inner selves by the power of God. What? God? Oh dear no!! Good Gawd, you can't say 'God' here in Subud Vision!! What will the neighbours think?

Stefan: though I love yer dearly, and simply must wend my way to the Fens so we can have a good laugh again, it seems to me that you'll do anything to run away from inner reality, and try anything under the sun, from clog dancing to Pagan Bopping, as part of that never-ending process. I might hastily add that I, too am guilty of running away from inner reality very often. And I simply will not accept the justice of some of the things I have had to put up with inwardly in Subud. But then, that's my lil battle with the 'higher ups', and isn't a lot of what we see here in SubVision simply a reflection of people's inability to fully surrender inwardly, like we were told to do on the tin?

From Sahlan Diver, October 1, 2008. Time 18:13

Luthfi says: "....SubVision simply a reflection of people's inability to fully surrender inwardly, like we were told to do on the tin?"

The submission is supposed to be submission to the action of the latihan, on the basis that it works in a way that is inaccessible to the mind and the will. It is not supposed be unquestioning submission to the outer trappings of Subud, the cobbled together collection of relgious beliefs, spiritual ideas and so on which have come together to make up "Subud culture".

So if someone says that Subud Vision, or anything else for that matter, is a reflection of their inability to fully surrender, I don't see how they can possibly know that for any individual because they would have to know the inner reality of that individual. On what basis can they claim to be so authoritative? All they have to go on is that the person is querying or questioning matters that have up till now have been tacitly accepted as being right. To mark someone up as being "not fully submitted" because they question Subud matters (many of which might not even be spiritual matters) is surely too facile a basis on which to judge people. Should we just put up and shut up and go around mouthing spiritual platitudes instead and then everyone will admire us for our great spiritual sagacity? That sort of thing would be playing at being spiritual, mere posturing, and we know what happens when religion goes that way - one minute they are busy boasting about how devout and pious they are, the next minute they blow themselves to pieces and callously take as many innocents with them as they can.

From Philip Quackenbush, October 1, 2008. Time 20:18

Hi, Stefan,

You said,

"Philip, when you use "the cult" to refer to Subud is this meant as a a provocation?"

To paraphrase the Buddha, who used the word upset, if you're provoked, it's because you're provokable. I feel the word cult applies to the SUBorg because it conforms (or did, last time I looked) to 21 out of the 25 parameters of a cult that David Week listed on SUBtalk a while back. Maybe he could re-post them for SUBvision edification. If the org. gets down to the point of, say, 50% conformance to those parameters, it might be evidence of sufficient progress to warrant not using the term, but so far, it seems to me that at least the Old Guard elements of the SUBorg are still promoting it on official sites and in the available literature (led by the projected 50-volume blue "Bible" of the founder's lectures [I still wonder if the same crowd are planning a similar New Testament of the daughter's lectures]), down to the materials handed out and promoted to applicants.

As I keep stressing, until a restructuring of the org. takes place, the inherent freedom that some of us experienced in the "early days" will continue to elude most members and the lack of it repel quite a few potential applicants, as well as maintain the current dropout rate of c. 98%. The alternative, of course, is to wait until all of the Old Guard die off and "comes the Revolution, Comrades, but the new 60 is 80, and there's a UK guy who claims that physical immortality is just around the corner, since life extension is becoming exponential, so I wouldn't count on it.

"It doesn't explain why it's so easy to express dissent or to rebel (as many of us are doing) and still be welcomed and liked in Subud circles."

In my experience, it depends on where and to whom and how much you express dissent. When I "received" at a SUBretreat that I should offer myself up as a returning "helper" for the local group, the reaction by the "helpers'" group was mixed (it was never "tested", I got tired of waiting for it to happen, and "received" to bow out. When I asked about some of the founder's sexual proclivities in front of an Old Guard member three or four years ago, I got such a violent reaction that it seemed prudent to never mention it again (but here I am doing just that), despite the fact that a psychiatrist member, before apparently departing the org. on that basis, pointed out that it's very important to know whether a leader does as he or she recommends, since one who doesn't is almost always a congenital liar.

"This website, which welcomes critique on all the cultish aspects of our organisation, is gaining credibility and forms the basis for a recent WSA report, asking members and groups to evaluate Subud's norms and see how we might evolve ourselves."

Rotsa ruck. That's why I'm still hanging on on this site, since the SUBtalk site seemed to become rather irrelevant after the demise of its main contributor and the growth and relevancy of this one. May it be so.

"Absolutely agree about "outer" Subud having Islamic tendencies - Ramadhan, selamatans, many refs to "Almighty God" etc. However a growing number of members are expressing an uneasiness about our inherited culture, with a suspicion that this is a factor in Subud's lack of success in gaining or keeping new members. Not even practicing Muslims are attracted by "Sublam". It really is up to us (grass roots)to broaden Subud so that the latihan hall becomes a welcoming environment for freethinkers, agnostics, Hindus, Pagans etc."

It seems to me that that's happening to some extent with the younger members influence. Those in to "indigo children" now claim that 100% of new births in the West are now them ("We have met the enemy, and he is us").

"I like your perception that our founder's Islamic roots created a tendency for people to experience and communicate their spirituality in Islamic terms, though this too is being widely questioned now with a view to free us up and move our culture forward."

More than a tendency in the early daze. I got personally sucked in to the Muslim fad against what should have been my better judgment. As a nominal apostate, those who follow the strict letter of the Koran are no doubt slavering at the possibility of killing another one (I happen to think that that verse was probably only intended to get the Islamic cult started in the face of considerable early opposition and persecution; like the chronological evolution of the alcohol prohibiton, it should have been superseded by a later "receiving", but temporal lobe epileptic episodes, like those that Muhammad and Paul apparently were subject to, can't be commanded, although they probably do "lift the veil" (one or three of several) while more often than not being heavily filtered by the "receiver"). Not a pretty picture, despite the prevalence of peci's at virtually every SUBgathering.

Peace, Philip

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