Subud Vision - Discussion

Hassanah Briedis - The Latihan of Subud, Dissociation and the Neurology of Spiritual Experience

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From Philip Quackenbush, December 15, 2007. Time 20:8

Hi, Hassanah,

"Buddhist walking meditation is similar to the "latihan" in that being mindful of each step one takes takes the mind off the usual chattering of the ego. This happens also in the "latihan", but the movements are spontaneous and can draw the attention to them and away from the chattering, which is the same with the Buddhist version when the body is just allowed to walk with no intention behind it."

I should have added to the last sentence: "simply observing the walking taking place." The difference, if there is any, is in the intention of directing or redirecting the attention to the walking, but I'm sure that most "latihan" practitioners have experienced the attention wandering in "latihan" from what's happening to the body to something else and then perhaps saying to oneself sotto voce that the attention really should go to what's happening instead of some obsession of the day or addictive concern, and as soon as that happens, redirecting the attention (which is rather suffused in an alpha state, I've found) to the present moment and what's occurring, which reduces stress, as many studies have shown.

Peace, Philip

From Mike Higgins, December 15, 2007. Time 21:35

"I've always understood the latihan to be quite the opposite — a 'sliding' as it were, into a different state of consciousness, rather than a willed control of the body's state."

Hassanah, I don't see why it has to be an either/or situation. Meditation/Latihan can be a willed form of surrender or relaxation. All hypnosis is self hypnosis, one allows oneself to be hypnotized. As I mentioned in another thread, for me the latihan is a heightened state of attention that I allow to occur. I allow myself to relax completely and move freely - or not move at all if I don't wish to (i.e., it's not spontaneous in the sense of being beyond my control). Also, I don't see how labeling it "disassociation" will help us understand it any more than calling something a "placebo" explains the mechanism of it's healing action. If Swami Rama couldn't dissociate from a fear of dying, he wouldn't be able to stop his heart. Disassociation can be productive or destructive. The medical model is founded on the study of ill people so focuses on the negative aspects of it. If you want to understand optimal physical/mental health, you should study those who are well, not those who are sick. Thank you - Mike

From Bronte, December 16, 2007. Time 0:36

I am astonished at the avowed atheism of any member of Subud. We had one person who, on discovering, after years of very active latihans, that "we" claim we are "Worshipping God", promptly left Subud, because he was not going to participate in such nonsense.

As to "neurological functions" relative to latihan, I think many people would make claims that the "neurological functions" involved in latihan do extend beyond the individual practitioner, to influence people who are present nearby, conciously and unconciously. Once, recently, I even found that some people in the room talked of a "nice feelng" when I "surrenderd to latihan" in their presence, without them knowing. So there is a factor not dealt with really well by materialistic science, unless suddenly, unknown to me, the scientific community is now recognising the reality of telepathy..........

I had one visitor to my home tell me he started to feel strange things happening in his back. Soon after his mother told me he wanted nothing more to do with me. I did nothng physical to provoke that inital reaction, but I did talk to him a little about Subud

Was that hypnosis?

Was it telepathic?

What was it?

The latihan at work?

God at work?

And if God isn't necessary for Subud latihan, it must be very easy for "Gay" people to be responsible helpers, too, as they don't confornm to the narrow moralistic "norms" of religiousity, which, at least in this country, ar firmly imposed by the "people in power" on candidates for helper, Gay people who can certainly experience latihan. Hence one such person was among the founding members in the western world.

I think dismissal of God as a component of Subud is not the way forward. Neither is it necesary for Atheists to leave Subud, though if rules like imposed on Gays were imposed by the People in Power, then such caring people as Hassanah would be banned immediatly.

It' fun to be banned from latihan, by the helpers. It sort of "make's one's day"- into a total long lasting devastation. Been there. Done that.

By the way, isn't the accepted terminology, among "true believers" that you don't "Do" Yogi, you "Do" Yoga, and the one who is a true practitioer of it is the "Yogi", but only if he or she is a devotee of it, lifelong, not just a part time or occassional pracitioner of Yoga?

Those word were being used a bit roughly in these articlesit seems.

From Mike Higgins, December 16, 2007. Time 2:42

"And if God isn't necessary for Subud latihan..."

Yes, obviously belief in God is not necessary to practice the latihan. But it requires an open mind so, as you said, it is difficult to see why a devout atheist would stick with it.

"By the way, isn't the accepted terminology, among "true believers" that you don't "Do" Yogi, you "Do" Yoga, and the one who is a true practitioer of it is the "Yogi", but only if he or she is a devotee of it, lifelong, not just a part time or occassional pracitioner of Yoga?"

If you're referring to my comments about Swami Rama, yes, he had a spiritual guru whom he lived and studied with for most of his childhood and young adult life and, as you said, his life was devoted to yoga and service. The biofeedback studies were simply a form of service to him. Sorry if I gave a different impression. He also did some other things at the Menninger Foundation laboratories that no one wants to talk about because they won't fit in current scientific paradigms. For example, he practiced psychokinesis, moved a physical object in the lab apparently via the means of mental or psychic energy. The experiment was designed so that he could not influence the object by any physical means.

From David Week, December 18, 2007. Time 11:33

Hi Mike

"Yes, obviously belief in God is not necessary to practice the latihan. But it requires an open mind so, as you said, it is difficult to see why a devout atheist would stick with it."

What manner of logic is this? In the first place, there seems to be little empirical evidence for linking Theism with open-mindedness. Most Theism is closely tied to dogmatic belief, and an antagonism towards "open mindedeness", and an intolerance of variant beliefs. Most Theists in the news are right-wing conservatives. For most of European history, belief in God required only one thing: social conformity.

Contrariwise, if you're sticking with the latihan because of some BELIEF that you have, you're quite possibly missing the whole point, which is to go to a place to beyond heart and mind, and therefore outside of matters of faith, doctrine, belief, or even knowledge.

We Buddhist sympathizers have a term: "upaya", which translates as "skillful means" but might be more colloquially translated as "whatever floats your boat." In Buddhism, it's taken to mean "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as it leads you to meditate." Taking this concept into Subud, we might say "it doesn't matter what you believe, as long as helps you keep up your latihan." For some people, a story about God or grace or worship might do the trick. Others might not be motivated by that particular tale.

Best

David

From Mike Higgins, December 18, 2007. Time 21:38

I agree with you, David. My definition of "atheist" must be stricter than your own. Always thought of it as the assumption that "There is no God" versus the more open minded supposition of the agnostic: "I don't know if there is a God."

A comment though, you said:

"if you're sticking with the latihan because of some BELIEF that you have, you're quite possibly missing the whole point, which is to go to a place to beyond heart and mind, and therefore outside of matters of faith, doctrine, belief, or even knowledge."

Now I must accuse you too of logical inconsistency. If one had no belief or faith in a "higher intelligence," something beyond the "heart and mind" that one can commune with, why would one engage in mediation/latihan?

I don't think that one can escape from beliefs in this world. Even the "I don't believe" of the atheist is a belief.

Happy Holidays to you and everyone on this board! - Mike -{ :?)

From David Week, December 18, 2007. Time 21:52

Hi Mike

I agree my statement was a mite extreme. Beliefs are inescapable. But I have to admit that I do the latihan for no reason at all (or at least none that I can fathom), and that the less that I expect of it, the better I feel. Buddhists, by the way, meditate for one reason: that this, according to Buddhism, is the road to the cessation of suffering, which is seen as a noble end in itself.

Best to you, and have a good break, I know I need one myself!

David

From bron, December 18, 2007. Time 22:42

"If one had no belief or faith in a "higher intelligence," something beyond the "heart and mind" that one can commune with, why would one engage in meditation/latihan?"

Now here I must throw in my two-penneth worth of my sublime ignorance again.

And I think I am very much on-topic, believe it or not.

If there is an observable effect from doing latihan, then it is not a belief that we are following.

It is being done, like some house decorations, "For the effect".

Seriously though.....

We, who claim we have a "response" to the "Opening", and manifest behaviour which is not logical or rational most times when we "do latihan", are showing ourselves, if no one else, that we have something that works. So we do not need beliefs, explanations, even, as David implies, purpose.

We just enjoy doing it. When we can.

So science might be trailing along behind the reality of Subud, and religion might claim it is "in front", because it seems to claim a copyright on God.

And as we can observe (very scientific. yes?) the world's religions don't prove to anyone that there is a God or a soul, and science, looking at us crazies in Subud, can't see any sense or reality in what we do.

So let's keep doing it because it does something in our neurons, and elsewhere, which helps some people make changes in their lives that, to a few of us, seem very beneficial.

I'd hate to give up my latihan altogether just because someone asked me to do what they said, although that is technically what I have done in relation to group latihan.

I started doing it originally because I was told no one was going to tell me what to do or, as I find in Religion, to tell me to do something that I find I can't do, like "Being A Good Person." That abilty seems to be an act of chasing an illusion, even if the Subud people place their rules around our limitations and fence us in with them.

Have a nice break David. I did not think the little interstate visit was all holiday, but may it be a nice time for you.

From Philip Quackenbush, December 19, 2007. Time 8:18

Hi, Bronte,

My stating that I am an atheist does not negate my regarding myself a deist, i.e., one who thinks (not believes; the opinion is based on logic, not belief) that all the universe is "divine" or, to put it another way, there is nothing which is not sacred (scared?) nor profane (nor pro bane?): it's all One, no creator, no non-creator, it just evolved from no thing and continues to evolve.

Peace, Philip

From Bronte, December 19, 2007. Time 13:10

I know we are all trying to re-invent, or to distill the reality, of Subud. What else can we call what we ar doing?

However, there are many things taught, both by Bapak, who wanted us not to take his teachings as teachings, and by others, which leave us with only Bapak's descriptions of Subud as being adequate. Even the Guru site said Bapak was unable to escape religion. Should we find ourselves cleverer?

We often want to find a different place, or role for God, preferably right out the door and the window. Oh, I am finding lots of Atheist around these days. My partner is.

So look at the amazingly obscure statement "I am that I am". and I leave others to find it's source. Nothing could be more obscure, or more demanding.

Then consider the saying "the Toa that can be spoken is not the true Toa"

Well, if that doesn't leave lots of rom for Subud, or at least it's latihan, what does?

And then there's the wonderfull "if you see Buddha on the path,kill him." How do we handle that cryptic crossword?

I think this discussion is putting Bapak Subuh's name into that sentence.

And how about " A new head and a new heart will I give you."

Now there's a beauty. The moral re-armament guys used to quote that, about the God they believed in, the God of all Jews and Christians. That's how one of them explained his recovery from a bad heart attack. And I seem to notice an element of that in Bapak's advice that, as we do latihan more and more, the inner being becomes alive and grows, is something new in us.

Now, where are we if we want to discard God? In the category of the person described in the statemnt "The fool has said in his heart "There is no God.""? It is not I who first said that.

The effort to distill, dilute, distance ourselves from Bapak's original words is going to fail, badly.

Or so I believe, because it is all about something new, which comes into being because we practice latihan, and develop a new understanding, which defies words.

And what is left?

The latihan.

And so it should be that all peole coming to latihan might be told that.

There is You, and Life.

All else is lies. All else is illusion.

Latihan is a new life.

Our words won't change that.

Let's keep that fact in this equation more, please.

From Hassanah Briedis, December 20, 2007. Time 3:13

Hi Guys, I find it interesting that the thread of feedbacks has moved through an evolution towards a discussion about atheism versus a belief in God, and the relevance of this for the practice of ‘latihan’. In writing the article about dissociation and the latihan, I avoided placing myself in any category of belief system. I did not want my article to be seen as a soap box for atheism. But I do think that the issue is implicit in my article.

I heard a wonderful article on the radio once, by a man who was putting forward a belief category that allowed for both atheism and spirituality. He spoke directly to my beliefs. I can’t remember what he called it, but it might have been something like ‘humanistic spirituality’. He described a belief system that was exactly what had developed in me since rejecting all the conventional religious systems of thought. In this I agree with Philip absolutely, that spirituality can exist quite separately from the concept of a God.

I feel a sense of spirituality intensely, but it is more centred around a sense of the sacredness of all life and all creation, and an imperative for good action, constructive not destructive behaviour, and the essence of love, which is to do what is best for the wellbeing and growth of oneself and the other. I don’t feel any need for there to be a ‘God’ controlling all this. The latihan, whatever it is, taps into this universal spirituality, this feeling of intense and overwhelming love for all creation. The attaching of a belief in a Godhead as the ‘giver’ of this latihan, for me is a baggage left over from about three thousand years of monotheism, which is deeply ingrained in people’s consciousness and culture. But I see it as essentially a cultural construct, not as an absolute truth that should not be questioned.

I think that people who reject conventional God-based systems of belief get a bad rap, and that it might be helpful for them to speak out more about what they actually believe in, as it seems to me that there is a tendency for the God-fearing to think that atheists don’t believe in anything!

Best to all, Hassanah

From Bronte, December 20, 2007. Time 20:43

Hassanah,

I know Bapak was a Moslem. But he had the option to talk about the more vague, non-God concepts involved in spirituality if he wished. The Buddha supposedly did, no matter that his teachings occurred so long ago as to be considered "dubious history", along with all the traditions from that far back, or merely a thousand years ago, before printing crystallised the words used in religious beliefs ever since.

Also, in dealing with religious experiences, many people relate things which demand that there be a God, not just a vague universal-life-force, which even Theosophists seem content with. It does not seem part of what Bapak gave us to dissociate the concept of God from the source and reality of the latihan.

I personally practice latihan so little now that I have to say I have no significant religious experience within it, and the component of my latihan which is strictly religious is still an essential part of the reality of my latihan. Namely, I make it an act of Submission to the Will of God, which I always believed was part of Bapak's definition of latihan.

Roll on the Return of the Saviour (or the Madhi, if you are Moslem, the Messiah if you are Jewish.) And then too, Bapak had an interesting thing to say this, did he not. More in line with the Biblical "Thief in the Night" version of the return to Mankind of the true spiritual guidance that is needed.

Well, I offer this as my own experience and beliefs. If people don't want it, and still want latihan, that's their choice. At least in Subud the latihan can still happen, but in religion, if you profess no belief in God, the benefits, whatever they are, are not accessible. Though in some expressions of religion it is all about control of one lot of people by another, and seems to be nothing more.

From Merin Nielsen, December 21, 2007. Time 4:52

Hi, Bronte,

I have a brother ten years older than me. He loves fishing. I remember once he said how enjoyable it is, and I responded, truthfully, that I detest fishing. He seemed utterly amazed that anyone, let alone his little brother, could possibly find it unenjoyable. But even though I hate fishing, I still love my brother.

We're all different, and there are really very few actions that we all need to do the same, as a bunch, by virtue of all being members of Subud. One of the things that we're free to do differently is to treat Bapak's words differently. Bapak himself said this.

Earlier, you referred to the "effort to distill, dilute, distance ourselves from Bapak's original words". For me, this is no effort - it's something that, on occasion, I'm inclined to do quite naturally. But it's not something that I expect or wish anybody else to do. It's not my concern how other people treat the words of Bapak - unless they are somehow pressuring me to treat the words of Bapak in the same way that somebody else does.

Embracing Bapak's words is not something that we, as a group, can ever possibly do. Likewise, distancing ourselves from Bapak's words is not something that we, as a group, can ever possibly do. Both these actions can only possibly be done by individuals, because we are not all sufficiently alike to ever do such things in unison!

Some of us will do the former, some will do the latter, and many will do neither. When it comes to believing in God, the same thing applies.

There's no problem with being a bunch of individuals. Being in Subud together does not impose any requirements of conformity, apart from the understanding of mutual respect that we accept in terms of practising the latihan together.

Of course it's wonderful if, as Subud members, we end up discovering more than mutual respect, such as love, but one thing I would hate to discover is that we're all the same.

Cheers,

Merin

From David Week, December 21, 2007. Time 14:48

Bronte says:

...in religion, if you profess no belief in God, the benefits, whatever they are, are not accessible.

The Desert Fathers said:

God is the life of all free beings. He is the salvation of all, of believers or unbelievers, of the just or the unjust, of the pious or the impious, of those freed from passions or those caught up in them, of monks or those living in the world, of the educated and the illiterate, of the healthy and the sick, of the young or the old. He is like the outpouring of light, the glimpse of the sun, or the changes of the weather which are the same for everyone without exception.

Abba Pambo said, "If you have a heart, you can be saved."

A story from the Desert Fathers:

There was an old man living in the desert who served God for so many years and he said, "Lord, let me know if I have pleased you." He saw an angel who said to him, "You have not yet become like the gardener in such and such place." The old man marvelled and said, "I will go off to the city to see both him and what it is that he does that surpasses all my work and toil of all these years."

So he went to the city and asked the gardener about his way of life. When they were getting ready to eat in the evening, the old man heard people singing in the streets, for the cell of the gardener was in a public place. Therefore the old man said to him, "Brother, wanting as you do to live according to God, how do you remain in this place and not be troubled when you hear them singing these songs?"

The man said, "I tell you, abba, I have never been troubled or scandalized." When he heard this the old man said, "What, then, do you think in your heart when you hear these things?" And he replied, "That they are all going into the Kingdom." When he heard this, the old man marvelled and said, "This is the practice which surpasses my labour of all these years."

A Zen story:

When Banzan was walking through a market he overheard a conversation between a butcher and his customer.

"Give me the best piece of meat you have," said the customer.

"Everything in my shop is the best," replied the butcher. "You cannot find here any piece of meat that is not the best."

At these words Banzan became enlightened.

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