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Subud Vision - Discussion

Stefan Freedman - Buddhism and Subud

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From Hassanah Briedis, January 5, 2008. Time 11:11

Hi Andrew,

You say "I have no expectations that neurotheology will deliver some surprising revelations about the latihan or any other spiritual practice." In fact neurotheology has already highlighted some fascinating aspects about brain processes happening during 'spiritual' experience. Some of the research is discussed on the Net. It's fascinating to me, because I believe that all experience has to be mediated by brain activity for us to even know that we've experienced it. I find it interesting to discover how the brain gives us a sense of experiences that seem so divorced from cognitive functions.But I realize that not everyone finds it fascinating or even relevant. Who cares HOW it happens!

I'll try to find something (other than what I've already included in my article) that could demonstrate what neurotheology can contribute. Best, Hassanah

From Philip Quackenbush, January 5, 2008. Time 13:14

Hi, Andrew,

You wrote:

If we were to substitute "music" for the "latihan" in this exchange, would you say that music only becomes more real and valid if we can scientifically measure how the brains and bodies of people respond who are doing music and listening to it? That somehow we are missing something about music and how it affects us if these studies aren't done?

Interesting that you should ask, because there's a book that's been out a couple of years written by a musician/producer/neuroscientist (he got his doctorate in science after years as a successful musician) called This is Your Brain on Music that talks about numerous recent studies that show many things that we may be missing in both listening and performing music, and how it affects us (his basic conclusion is that music is more important to human life than language; and many parallels can be drawn from the research he cites on music and the neurology of "spiritual" practice.

I'm probably going to reduce my contributions to this project, such as they are, because the feedback the last couple of days has been enough to wipe out any other activity if followed up assiduously (I'm already a day behind in reading all the feedback, and shudder to contemplate what tomorrow will bring), and I really have other things to do in life that I consider more important than this, even though I'm retired, so that's all I'll say to your post. Sorry 'bout that, but that's the way it is.

Peace, Philip

From Andrew Hall, January 6, 2008. Time 0:17

Hi Hassanah,

I think it's great that you are fascinated about identifying brain processes that happen during spiritual practice. And I can accept your belief that "all experience has to be mediated by brain activity for us to even know that we've experienced it."

I certainly want to encourage you to go wherever your passion leads you.

My thinking (which can always change) is that a correspondence (such as a certain pattern of brain activity happening during a spiritual practice) is only that - a correspondence. It does not indicate that one thing causes another, only that when one thing is present, then the other thing is also usually present.

Nor do I think that a correspondence "proves" that a spiritual practice is nothing more than a certain pattern of brain activity. I think that people sometimes jump to this conclusion because it "proves" their argument for atheism.

I don't think it proves anything except that we can observe this correspondence.

I dislike this especially because it gets linked with the modern enthusiasm for technology, and I see suggestions that we will have a shortcut in spiritual practice by stimulating certain brain wave patterns or that doing latihan will eventually be made redundant in the same way.

This idea leaves me cold. I can't imagine an easy technological fix for the human journey towards the divine.

It makes me want to run to the "technology" of the Cloud of Unknowing that Michael Irwin talks about, something beyond us, where our words and images become stumbling blocks and impediments and all we can bring to our practice is naked love and blind intent.

Hi Philip,

Thanks for pointing me in the direction of the book, "This is Your Brain on Music". I'd ask you some questions about it but you indicate that you don't want to pursue this conversation. I am sorry for that.

Regards,

Andrew

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