Subud Vision - Discussion

Stefan Freedman - Subud at Middle East Spirituality and Peace Festival

Discussion continued from this page

From David Week, April 27, 2008. Time 15:32

Hi Merin

On the Egyptian/Greek soul question...

"The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is ... speculation ... nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture ... The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, Funk and Wagnalls, New York, 1941, Vol. VI, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

Greek Soul:
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ancient-soul/

Egyptian Soul:
http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/themestream/egypt_soul.html

And one more view:
Strictly speaking, then, for Christianity the soul is not immortal. It dies with the body and is resurrected at the end of time. Hence the connections drawn between any presumed body/soul duality in Plato or Aristotle and the Christian view of afterlife via resurrection must be faulty. Connections between immortality of soul and other religious views, however, are quite strong. Indeed, discussions of the transmigration of souls (or reincarnation) significantly predate Plato. Empedocles of Acragas, who was born in the early fifth century B.C.E., was known to have said: "For I have already been once a boy and a girl, a bush and a bird, and a leaping journeying fish" (Kirk, Raven, and Schofield, p. 319). Xenophanes reports that Pythagoras held similar views, leading to an argument against mistreating any living thing as it may contain the soul of a loved one (p. 219). Herodotus claims that the first people to postulate "the doctrine that the soul of man is immortal" were the Egyptians (p. 219). It is not clear, however, that the Egyptians really were the origin of the immortal soul view, and it is even less likely that they originated a view of reincarnation. Beliefs in the transmigration of souls probably originated in the East and eventually made their way to the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and so on.
http://science.jrank.org/pages/7782/Immortality-Afterlife.html

Best

David

From Michael Irwin, April 27, 2008. Time 22:58

DW: The latihan is just an exercise in flow.

MI: Now all I have to do is figure out what ‘flow’ is.

DW: Subuh always advised that people adopt the framework of a religion, as well as their latihan practice, to develop ethical flow. Unfortunately, many have not done so.

MI: Unfortunate too, that many who adopt also don’t develop ‘ethical flow’.

DW: Best we stick with what we know, and not to dabble in other traditions unless we’re going to get serious about them.

MI: Well, I better get back to my Bible.

From bronte, April 28, 2008. Time 1:5

"Well, I better get back to my Bible."

Mine Got@!
We are back to Square 1.
Subud can pack it's bags and go home!
Or at least I can.
And lot's of people wish I would.
But I never noticed that people were able to DO what the Bible, or any other religious book for that matter, actually TOLD them to DO!
Some try, but the rest of us just remain Very Trying!

From Philip Quackenbush, April 28, 2008. Time 16:17

Hi, David, Michael, and Bronte,

DW: In the first place, the “latihan” is an exercise -- it’s practice. It’s not “the real thing”. The “real thing” is life. What we know from how we do activities like playing the piano, or golf, or tennis, is that first we do it badly; then, we engage ourselves in a program of study, and do things mechanistically and reflectively: like playing scales. Eventually, our practice becomes natural and spontaneous, and even creative. This state some psychologists call the state of “flow”.

The latihan is just an exercise in flow. Why is it a good idea? Because culture tends to condition to function in overly reactive and mentalistic modes, and to forget how to be in flow. Thus, in many aspects of our life -- being with others, working, sex, eating -- we lose the capacity to be in flow. Latihan is an exercise in pure flow.

A warning: just practicing being in pure flow will not by itself get you anywhere. You still need that outer training. For instance, if you want to develop ethical flow, where you naturally and spontaneously treat people well, you need an outer ethical framework, as well as this practice in flow: just as it is with learning to play a musical instrument.

For this reason, I believe, Subuh always advised that people adopt the framework of a religion, as well as their latihan practice, to develop ethical flow. Unfortunately, many have not done so. The results that we see today -- perhaps predictably -- is many people complaining that nothing changes, they don’t progress, and that Subud people treat each other very badly.

MI: Now all I have to do is figure out what ‘flow’ is.

DW: Subuh always advised that people adopt the framework of a religion, as well as their latihan practice, to develop ethical flow. Unfortunately, many have not done so.

MI: Unfortunate too, that many who adopt also don’t develop ‘ethical flow’.

DW: Best we stick with what we know, and not to dabble in other traditions unless we’re going to get serious about them.

MI: Well, I better get back to my Bible.

Bronte:

PQ: Well, since the "latihan" is an exercise in flowing "meditation" (despite all assertions to the contrary that it is not meditation), and the general purpose of meditation is to get "enlightened", or in synch with the Source (philosophically speaking: "God" for those in the Abrahamic religions; "Great Spirit" to the Native Americans, etc.), there is a basic conflict between the fundamentalist, literalist view of religions and meditative or contemplative practices such as the "latihan" that remove the necessity of following "The Word", if one becomes sufficiently "advanced" in their practice. Thus, the inherent problem of following two masters, the "outer" written word of the Bible, Quran, Buddha's teachings, what have you, and the "inner" experience that comes from such practices.

There is the symbolic or direct instruction in most religions, however, referring to the "Kingdom of heaven within you" or Islamic "paradise" or "nirvana", etc. that a follower of the written words (or cultural traditions for those non-literate religions) can eventually recognize for the "finger pointing at the moon" that they are. But most people will probably require the crutch of their religion to remain stable enough in their approach to life to get to the point where they can give up their beliefs to face Reality as it Is; hence the attempt of Muhammad Subuh, as I see it, to keep members from "falling off the deep end" before they're ready for such an all-encompassing way of life that discards all beliefs, if ever.

Unfortunately, a close reading of the "explanations" reveals a steady deterioration of Subuh's own rational faculties and increasing megalomania, IMO, and, as a result, we have a classic case of the "blind leading the blind". Better, then, IMO, to stick to his earlier "explanations" where he simply said to follow one's "latihan" until all becomes clear, and ignore all the gobbledegook that followed later.

Thus, IMO, the first volume of the "Blue Bible" is more than sufficient to "explain" the Subud "world" that one enters into upon taking up the practice of the "latihan", especially since it contains the most accurate translations and not the attempted "cover-ups" and lack of understandings of many referents seen in later lectures done by the current "team."

Peace, Philip

From bronte, April 29, 2008. Time 1:20

Thanks for all the explanation about "flow"
My urologist is concerned about that too.

I am concerned that any involvement I have with Subud is connected with the "Flow" of my life.
And as far as I can see, it is, and should be, no matter that I am an "isolated" member.
The practice offered to people who come to Subud is certainly able to be isolated from everyday life. And for many observers, that is all they see. So they see nothing of value. So no new people come and stay.

But for me, and I suspect lots of others too, occasionally, if not frequently, that latihan experience is able to participate in my moment by moment activities.
Now how many people, writing to this site, such as yourself and David W, actually feel latihan while writing here. Even I find it a little light on as I try to be aware of it.
Now perhaps the pianist as he/she plays, or the soldier as he(usually) gets out there to kill the enemy (well! That's his job!) can possibly feel the latihan as the task progresses. Perhaps not.
But if latihan is so separate from life that it does not, or rather, can not, participate in every breath we take, then it is not really relevant.
I believe all religion actually leads people to that much connection with their "God" or "Spirit", and some people in Subud would definitely claim that for them, that is how it is.
And if so, then it is all worthwhile, and the group latihans, when all other life activities are temporarily put aside, are a necessary extra to what is actually a different way of living for all "true believers".

Now some of my writing is definitely was accompanied by my feeling of latihan. But I doubt it will be greeted by all as "being Subud".

Those people who "feel good" when I am present at their spiritual meetings don't know, and neither do I really, that there is an influence we are sharing that comes "from the latihan", no matter how degenerate/imperfect I may be. Latihan, despite the silly non-English name, I regard as a "pure thing", and it is of benefit to all, eventually.

Please forgive the weirdness of this writing. I have seldom been so involved with my latihan as I write as I have today.
Peace
Bronte

From David Week, April 29, 2008. Time 2:44

Hi Michael

You can find 'flow' described here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

Best

David

From Merin Nielsen, April 29, 2008. Time 3:11

Hi, Philip,

You say that latihan is a kind of meditation, and that the general purpose of meditation is to get "enlightened", or in synch with the Source. You also say that meditative practices remove the necessity of following any "outer" guidance in the form of words. I find this perplexing because the concepts of getting enlightened and of synchronising with the Source appear to be forms of wordy guidance. They both 'teach' that there is some 'spiritual goal' to be achieved, but is this notion useful in relation to the latihan, or is it essentially another form of 'crutch'?

Hi, Bronte,

You use the term latihan in an interesting way. In Indonesian it means 'exercise', and in the Subud context I take it to mean the actual practice for which we set time aside, separate from our everyday activities. So when you discuss the presence of the 'latihan experience' throughout everyday activities, I take you to mean some particular feeling (of 'inner connection' or 'flow' perhaps?) that you also have when undertaking the actual exercise. You refer to this as a "pure thing" that influences people, but would you be prepared to explore more direct descriptions or more informative labels, rather than always calling it just 'exercise'?

Hi, David,

You explain why the exercise is a good idea -- since it helps restore the capacity for 'flow' -- if the flow itself is desirable. You describe the flow as representing unreflective naturalness, 'high immediacy', fluidity of being and spontaneously 'doing the right thing' among one's activities, without their being distorted by base impulses or reflective thinking. This sure sounds desirable, but you also indicate that 'doing the right thing' is developed in relation to outer training, determined according to the adopted framework upon which one focusses. But are there any criteria for the rightness of frameworks, or can 'the right framework' (on a case by case basis) be selected naturally and spontaneously?

Regards,
Merin

From bronteb, April 29, 2008. Time 4:42

Merin
I hope there will be another few people who can refer to this experience more convincingly than I have.
It is real for me, but a little scarce. And it is a little demanding, because it is not spontaneously an awareness of a feeling in me of "containment" or "centrenesss" these being the first two words that seem to fit, but something I must "call on" or think of, rather than being spontaneous.

When I was in the army, as a young man, I did, a few times, deliberately stop, and became "quiet" for a little while, (I never was in battle) occasionally, and a particular time comes to mind that is not relevant to army particularly, or any other time or place. Before a meal, a few moments of "quiet" occasionally led me to eat less, and more slowly. This anyone can do. But I was then fairly new in Subud, and very convinced of all it's reality, and felt it helped me to have the "right attitude" to food. I think my convictions about Subud earned me the accusations of being too arrogant and self righteous from the people who formed group 2 here, who never seem to do any more than 20 minute latihans, which my experiences always showed me was inadequate.
Things are different now. I have put on weight too much, so latihan did not stop that. Ideally, it might have, along with other influences.
But another example I give of "feeling & being in latihan" at a meeting with some friends, and finding spontaneously useful comments to make, which sort of "broke out" of my silence on that occasion.

There are too few people participating in this talk-fest which is SubudVision. I wish a few more would come on and comment on this issue.
Peace.
Bronte

From Philip Quackenbush, April 29, 2008. Time 6:48

Hi, Merin,

You said:

Well, whether one is seeking to get "out of" the ego's mental traps via Zen's "gateless gate" or Christianity's "narrow way" or some other pointed-at "path," there always seems to be the paradox that, to "get there", you usually have to use words to indicate how. The oft-heard admonition to "let go" or "surrender", as heard in Subud and many other "methods", can lead one towards the "goal-less" goal, but for most people, the way out of the labyrinth of the trillions of deceptions that the mental matrix of the ego has to keep one under its control requires some sort of framework to ferret out those deceptions and start to live in the moment, or Reality, without any concepts or beliefs to hinder that state, which they invariably will.

If you believe that you are in charge of your thoughts, try a little experiment: Tell yourself that you won't have any thoughts for two hours and see how long you can keep yourself from having any. Only when you can control the flow of thoughts and their resultant emotions can you be said to be free of their choke-hold. Thinking should be a tool, IMO, and not a slave-master. IMO, the practice of "latihan" without adherence to any attached beliefs as to what it is or what it can do is one route to that freedom.

My freedom from thoughts or being able to direct them is still rather limited, but it seems to be connected with the breath, which is one aspect of virtually any "program" that anyone can name that is by necessity included (on pain of death if it's stopped) to attain that freedom, so I think that the Buddhist practice of watching the breath may have a lot of merit in that respect. One can watch one's breath in "latihan" without interfering with the process, I've found, and concentration of one's attention on the breath can stop thought and with it, the memeplexes that are one's beliefs, if only for an instant or a few seconds. That may allow one enough time to "change one's mind". This doesn't mean that I "will" my attention to go to the breath during "latihan", nor am I suggesting that anyone do so, but it could be useful to note what happens in "latihan" when "it" directs one's attention there.

The form of scientifically-based meditation I've taken up recently (I haven't "given up" the "latihan", nor do I "mix" it with the "latihan") involves an audio program and "forces" the brain to function more holistically in all of its brain-wave phases (beta, alpha, theta, and delta) as one remains conscious. As I said, I'll report what the results are here after doing it a while (supposedly eight weeks of daily (5 to 8 days) will complete the program and only bimonthly "check-ins" will maintain the results permanently. Guaranteed or money back. Can Subud say the same? So far, after a little over a week of listening, I've noticed greater bilateral functionality (I can use my right hand with almost as much skill in some cases as my left, which is my "dominant" hand), have more energy and need less sleep (5-6 hours instead of 6-7), and seem to be able to express myself musically and in writing more easily and effectively (I'll let others judge as to the last).

Peace, Philip

From Philip Quackenbush, April 29, 2008. Time 6:56

Hi, Merin,

I said,

"Tell yourself that you won't have any thoughts for two hours and see how long you can keep yourself from having any."

Uh, I hope you don't try that while you're shaving or driving (though it's great during sex). Could be dangerous.

Peace, Philip

From Merin Nielsen, April 29, 2008. Time 7:38

Hi, Philip,

In your paragraph about the scientifically-based meditation that you're trying, the prospective effects sound quite desirable, but I just wonder if they represent distinctively 'spiritual goals'. What I'm getting at is whether such things as 'spiritual goals', like 'enlightenment' or 'synchronising with the Source', exist as real phenomena. In another paragraph, you mention "paths" like Zen's "gateless gate", Christianity's "narrow way", the "goal-less goal", the "way out" of the labyrinth of deceptions maintained by the ego's mental matrix, and an 'unhindered' state of living in Reality. Assuming that they are real, are such goals 'spiritual' somehow, or are they simply, naturally desirable for everyday reasons?

Regards,
Merin

From stefan, April 29, 2008. Time 7:42

Hi Bronte,

I always enjoy hearing your "voice" on these pages, with your ironic humour and for your willingness to share personal experiences.

When you say:
"another exampe I give of feeling & being in latihan at a meeting with some friends, and finding spontaneously useful comments to make, which sort of broke out of my silence on that occassion"
I think I know what you mean. One of the values I place on latihan is the way it's become integrated into my daily life. On a good day I feel as if my cooking, or a massage I'm giving or my choreography is coming from the same effortless creative energy that I sometimes access in latihan. This feels like a "grace".

Isn't this the same thing that David describes as "flow"?
(Not unique to latihaners) I like the analogy of a jazz musician, whose training provides a foundation for improvising in a real band. I also like having a way to describe latihan without needing to use faith words such as worship or God.

If all descriptions of Subud talked about "flow" or "chi" I'd be wanting alternative ones that mentioned God. What I need is diversity and freedom of interpretation. What I find stifling is any standardisation. That's why I enjoy all the voices on this site, and all the unresolved issues. I'd be disappointed if we all came to an agreement and issued "the new Truth" about Subud.

Stefan

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