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Marcus Bolt - Process Not Prozac

Instead of Testing. From Walter Segall, January 3, 2008. Time 18:5

When we test we are bothering The All Powerful and asking him for information which He hasn't chosen to make easily available to us. It may be that we should only test rarely and for good cause selecting problems for which we really can find no answer about right courses of action to take.

For almost all problems in the lives of ourselves and of Subud we might do well to solve them in ordinary ways using our hearts and minds.

From David W, January 4, 2008. Time 2:24

Hi Walter

I'm currently listening to a set of UC Berkeley lectures on existentialism.

You will need iTunes to download these. iTunes is a free download for Mac or Windows, A is available from here

You can find the lectures at here( )

I think you would enjoy them.

In the first three lectures, Hubert Dreyfus, who it a top guy in philosophy, characterises Western culture as one which is both informed, and torn between, two powerful influences:

the Hebrew

the Greek

He says this tension both troubles us, and also drives our culture in a particularly powerful way. The Hebrew tradition emphasises revelation, personal history, and the particular importance of events in time. The Greek tradition emphasises reason, impersonal patterns, and the importance of what does not change over time.

In the first few lectures, he covers the joining of the two traditions, first in the Gospel of St John, and then by Augustine, Aquinas and Dante. The existentialists, starting with Kierkegaard, basically said that these attempts were failures, and offer something new.

What I think has happened in Subud is that many people have attempted to escape the tension by dumping reason and focusing on revelation. Dreyfus (you know from his name he is Jewish!) explains why this simply won't work. Both these lines of cultural heritage are important, and you can't deny either.

So just subordinating reason (heart and mind) may work in Java, with its cultural history. It won't work--nor has it worked--for us in the West.



From Philip Quackenbush, January 5, 2008. Time 9:55

Hi, David,

Can it be said that it's really worked in Java? Suppressing the heart and mind, i.e. thoughts and emotions seems to have created a culture in which little attention is paid to anything resembling "progress" except "spiritual progress", which allows those in power to manipulate those who refuse to think or show their emotions and the island (and other islands under its influence) remains largely in the Dark Ages and unable to cope with almost universal corruption and the destruction of its own resources. They apparently interpret the Buddha's message (which seems to be incorporated in the Kejawen religion) that "all you are is a result of your thoughts" as meaning that thinking is to be suppressed or treated as a secondary activity instead of attempting to see how their thinking creates the situations they find themselves in, which will only change when they change their thinking, which is a basic function of humans in society created in the frontal lobes of the brain that can't be stopped or even ignored, and the attitudes and beliefs that result from it.

Peace, Philip

From bronte, July 27, 2008. Time 8:25

"we are bothering The All Powerful and asking him for information"

Oh Really?
That suggests we are practicing "divination".
A natural assumption, given the many explanations by Bapak.
But is it from some other source, or sources?

Just suppose that reason and logic are unable to tap into the emotional, feeling, side of ourselves, and I suggest they can't, then perhaps the Subud Testing may start to stir the other part of us into participating more in our lives, and of course our decision making, in a way that contibutes much positive value.
In a world ruled by the mind, does a practice of letting the heart participate really need to be dismissed as useless, or even partly so.
And if it is tapping into something even better than just our "inner", or ou heart, can we afford to not develop better skills using this tecnique? Subud seems here to be offerring a lost art of some great value yet to the need of humanity.

I'll say it again though.
It's a bit like prayer.
You don't necessarily get an answer directly by testing, or praying. But if you test, or you pray, sometimes things happen that might not have otherwise, and they may also be for the beter result, if the intention was "right"
Please do not encourage people who practice the latihan to dismiss testing as useless or irrelevant, or otherwise to be ignored or avoided.

From Simon Beck, July 28, 2008. Time 1:54

I think My stroke of Insight' by Jill
Bolte Taylor on gives insight into how limited our right brain awareness can be understood in left brain words. I suggest that it would equal to trying to explain the latihan in words or in religious themes. Well worth watching.


From bronte, August 19, 2008. Time 1:25

I can't watch that video.
But please don't ask me to expect reason and logic to take the place of the latihan and testing.
It can't. It won't.
The Christian idea is that
"quietening the mind and heart" lets the devil in.
(See the New Zealand cult site, or rather anti-cult site.)
We, Subud, get listed as "Dangerous" there. Well, I say so is the literal application of Christian dogma, and probably any other dogma.
Subud leads us to a different awareness. If you can't test to your satisfaction, then don't tell everyone to give up testing. Keep on applying the "testing process", and let it get more real, and relevant, as it will for some.
It was given to Subud people as part of the Subud training. Don't try to chuck it out. I think it is a vital part of our Subud life, and always will be.

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