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Marcus Bolt - Process Not Prozac

A Discussion Continued.. From Subud Vision editors, October 16, 2007. Time 23:16

We have moved to this page some discussion that started on the general feedback page, but which gradually led to a discussion that was relevant to Marcus's Process Not Prozac article.

Fair, caring, human behaviour. From Bronte, October 14, 2007. Time 14:33

It is NOW that I, and probably everyone else who writes here, wants to see some changes, although yesterday would have been a good time too.

Simple things, like being humane enough to apologise now for past mistakes, so they can be items of behaviour that stop NOW!

Simple things like showing people that we care enough to reach out to those who are unhappy or dissatisfied, including members who walked away, or were driven away. (ME for one)

Latihan alone is not a substute for fair, caring, human behaviour, and doesn't guarantee it.

I get a bit fed up with those who say "latihan is enough"

I'd rather have a little friendly dialog than a One-time National Chairman shouting at me accross a courtyard, at National Congress, that I am a liar, as happened, without him checking his facts properly. Our Subud behaviour often fails to look good in the light of day.

We can act better than we do.

Common courtesy and decency, as an exercise of the mind and heart, are necessary alongside the latihan, in order for Subud to grow. And it is still much lacking where I live.

And I still believe Subud is meant to grow. Maybe not in my lifetime.

From Marcus Bolt, October 16, 2007. Time 14:30

Ah, Bronte,

How one half of me so agrees with you, as someone who was 'sold down the river' by a Subud member who used what had passed between us confidentially to sucker the whole group into lining me up as the cause of their ills (not to mention the writ from National Office and then being further crushed by two massive egos).

But the other half of me thinks, 'The trouble with maturity is, it makes me realise that I have no-one to blame but myself...'

It's OK though. I'm not suffering from some form of dementia. I read somewhere Bapak saying that at times, during the process, one will feel like two people. Well, he got that one right!

From Bronte, October 16, 2007. Time 15:29

I read (after) the comments about "blaming myself" and find a close connection with the eastern religions, met when I encounter Buddhists, or Yoga practitioners, or Theosophists.

And most of all from the Subud people I meet, and read comments from.

OK, you win, if you believe in Karma, SelfRealisation, Self Development, Self Salvation.

But if you believe in love towards humanity, which I used to think might be a component of Subud, then this taking blame for one's own suffering is not the reponsible attitude they say it is.

It is the cop out. because it let's everyone else take advantage of us, and hurt others (others than us) and we merely say "It's not my problem" if it is someone else, and "Oh,I deserved it" if it's us.

Go tell that to your murderer!

Sorry. I am old (62) and Heavy (in the classic Subud sense) and rather on the Outer with all the In crowd, and others.

Thanks anyway. I've learnt to turn bleeding wounds into scars, at least. I still drive everyone nuts with my idea that THEY should try to develop a caring or apologetic attitude. I am still trying to, some of the time.

That's what they told me to do at Sunday School - I think!

(Oh I forgot again -in Subud we are not allowed to think.)

Being normal. From Sahlan Diver, October 16, 2007. Time 15:43

Dear Marcus and Bronte,

I am inclined to agree with Bronte. There is an entirely non-selfish reason for anyone not blaming oneself - if one blames oneself when one is not to blame, it gives the true culprits a license to inflict the same wrong behaviour on others with impunity. This often happens in Subud, so that we become like a strange cult with peculiar ideas about acceptable behaviour, at odds with what would be considered common-sense, decent behaviour in normal society. Bapak advised us to "be normal". I would say that advice has very wide ranging application,


From Marcus Bolt, October 16, 2007. Time 16:19

Hi Bronte and Sahlan

Oh, don't get me wrong! I don't mean they shouldn't be 'brought to book'. There are even moves afoot to make a public apology for what transpired - and I will pursue that to the wire. I believe a person, a group, a country can't get to a good place from a bad place, that the bad must be revisited and corrected (just like a sum). On the other hand, I also know the South African Reconcilliation programme only worked because the bad guys showed remorse.

What I meant by 'blaming myself' is that I shoulda seen it coming (I am even longer in the tooth than you, Bronte, receiving my UK pension for the first time in August of this year). But I trusted, I believed, I put my faith in the wong place and forgot to tether my camel - and they took advantage and nicked it. Damn!

(This is all in my subudvision essay 'Process not Prozac', by the way).

From Raymond Foster, October 16, 2007. Time 17:28

Bronte and Marcus

Tell them you forgive them. Nothing will annoy them more!


From Bronte, October 17, 2007. Time 0:52

Nice Christian idea. Might work too.

But I think there'd still be a dozen or so machine guns would open up from all sides if I walked into National Congress here next January. That's more or less what happened the last four times I went to (1) group 1, (2) group 2, (3) National Congress, (4) a Melbourne gathering. So those 4 events, all mentioned elsewhere, or alluded to, ensure I stay under cover, although it would be nice to do latihan with another (tolerant) Subud person now and then.

Ironically, congress 2008 will be held in a place that is a few yards (metres) away from the Quaker Meeting House, and is in the same location that the Theosophical Society is having their National Congress a week or so later.

Any one care to visit here for a nice summer holiday, and do some mixing, and swimming, next January?

Oh yes. I'd keep my camel tethered. Actually, I might leave it at home with the dog, and catch a bus to Congress if I go.

It'd be nice to actually meet David Week, and a few others I don't already know, if they go.

From David Week, October 17, 2007. Time 3:25

Hi Bronte

As Chair of Subud Australia, I extend to you an invitation to come to the National Congress 2008, and my personal guarantee that no-one is allowed to be aggressive towards anyone else while I am around.



From Bbronte-g@nwtrsronte, October 17, 2007. Time 6:57

Thanks David,

That's throwing down the gauntlet in the nicest way possible.

I am thinking a lot about it. I will try not to let the thinking go dry.

As to non-aggression..

Well, if we borrow some vibes from the Quakers next door, and the Anglican cathedral next door, it might all work out fine. I believe one of our Subud members is training to became an Anglican priest, whether he abandons Subud in the process (as you do....) remains to be seen. Then Adelaide will have had a Liberal Catholic priest (I think - long ago), a Greek Orthodox priest-trainee (also long ago) and that same man was once wanting to be an official of the Islamic faith.

And I have a long-standing affiliation with both Quakers and Theosphists, albeit not membership, going back to my pre- Subud days or thereabouts i.e. to when I was 15 or 16.


Let's see what happens.

And thanks again.

From marcus Bolt, October 17, 2007. Time 9:1

Now that's real nice and glad it's happened here.

I laughed at the suggestion of telling them I'd forgiven them. And then my evil mind suggested, 'Take it a step further... tell them you've asked Almighty God to forgive them.'

But then, as the lady said (first post to my essay), no point in forgiving someone who doesn't think they've done anything wrong. Forgiveness is a two-way street.

The Liberal party in England gives the impression of being green, environmentalist, just, representing the middle way, caring etc etc and usually takes about 18% of the vote in an election. However, they have publicly and cruelly kicked out two leaders in 18 months (the first for a drink problem, the most recent because he was too old).

There's a parallel with Subud here (and I've seen it in the Church); why do the 'good guys' do 'nasty' in such a shocking and vicious way? 'The end justifies the means' seems to be the watch-clause of fascists and religious groups alike.

Maybe the real bad guys have a more polished, Machieavellian PR set up so we don't notice the behaviour, whereas we in Subud do it clunkily so it stands out like a sore thumb. The lack of attention to Susila still takes me aback - especially when it was (non)practised on me!

Anyone got any insights on this?

From Hassanah Briedis, October 17, 2007. Time 13:13

Marcus, you ask why the 'good guys' (in Subud) do 'nasty' so well (something to that effect), and does anyone have any insights to put forward. I would imagine people would come up with suggestions that fit their particular perspective.

What immediately jumped into my mind was the experience I had when my Subud group was faced with what they saw as a threat to their whole Subud 'system'. What I saw then was that people with a hard and fast system need it to be constantly reinforced by collective agreement. The response to a threat is a great deal of Fear. And the more entrenched you are in your system, the more you have to lose if it is shown to be faulty.

There are probably many other reasons for the unkind, often cruel behaviour we see, but certainly one of them is blind fear and the irrational behaviour that engenders. It would also explain why established religions have such a shocking track record of cruel punishment for dissenters.

Just some thoughts. Hassanah Briedis

From David Week, October 17, 2007. Time 14:29

I agree, Hassanah. I think it's been fairly established that the rise of fundamentalism, and the proliferation of fringe movements, are both a result of uncertain social times. When times are uncertain, people attempt to create something certain. And there open the doors to hell.

If you've never seen the documentary "Jesus Camp", it's well worth the time. You can see it here, streaming online, for free. Note the "speaking in tongues", at about minute 8:

On a more positive note, I recently came across the following quote from Thomas Paine, who is ascending rapidly in my personal pantheon:

"Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the tumult soon subsides." THOMAS PAINE, Common Sense, January 1776

Best, David

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