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Subud Vision - Discussion

David Week - History and Myth

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From Donald H. Wolfraim, November 27, 2010. Time 18:29

Hi Philip
Thank you for your reply - it's great to be able to correspond with someone who has something important to say.

I agree with your statement: "belief is virtually central to what happens in one's life, and whatever one believes the "latihan" to be, if it's "practiced" regularly, can have a profound effect on what happens to one during said lifetime".

The problem however is the descrepancies that exist between
those beliefs and what a Subud member actually experiences as a result of holding that belief.

For example, I know of a severely cripled Subud member that believes that the latihan offers an opportunity to "shake- hands-with-God" and yet week after week that this assumed contact with the divine has not resulted in any healing of his condition.

I believe, that whatever the religious convicton, all such beliefs must be rigorously tested - and in Subud I have found that all such descrepancies between belief and experience are completely ignored.


From Michael Irwin, November 28, 2010. Time 0:26

Hi Donald. You wrote:

"For example, I know of a severely crippled Subud member that believes that the latihan offers an opportunity to "shake- hands-with-God" and yet week after week that this assumed contact with the divine has not resulted in any healing of his condition."

Even if the belief that the latihan does offer an opportunity to "shake-hands-with-God", what is the connection between that handshaking and the healing of his condition? Why should there be that expectation?


From Donald H. Wolfraim, November 28, 2010. Time 2:15

Hello Michael Irwin
Perhaps you might remember the early days of Subud in North America when Bapak was actively healing members in Indonesia. In those days healing was an expectation, even during the Latihan. If that expectation no loger exists, what happened to it?


From Walter Segall, November 29, 2010. Time 15:28

I have many things about which to think -- finances, diet, choices of reading material, etc...

I don't really have to think about the Latihan because it is just something I do twice weekly for a total of one hour.
I accept Bapak's explanation that the Latihan of Subud is the worship of HaShem, and I don't think that much more about it.

I follow many of the advices given by Bapak, but I certainly don't follow all of them (I even ate PORK at my senior center on Tuesday of last week.).

We know from the late Muhammad Mansour's gossipy posts that many highly respected members of Subud have lived less than exemplary moral lives, but this certainly doesn't doesn't negate the value of the Latihan IMHO.

W.


From marcus Bolt, November 29, 2010. Time 16:30

Hi Walter
I think you'd be hard pushed to find on this site any negation or criticism of the latihan - in case that's what you're alluding to in your post.

After 42 years diligence (twice a week and once on my own at home - that's about 6.500 latihans) I have come to the conclusion that a) I can't live without this and the improving changes it brings to my character (including my mind) and b) I still have no idea whether this is from God, or is an inbuilt, evolutionary 'protection', or is some form of psychological quirk. And frankly, I don't care as long as I can carry on doing it unto my death bed etc.

I do get concerned about the way Subud is presented to the world (in more and more religious sounding terms) and the way the organisation is in denial about shrinking membership, its antiquated form of governance etc etc - but that's another issue.


From Michael Irwin, November 29, 2010. Time 23:48

Hello Donald,

You wrote:

"If that expectation no longer exists, what happened to it?"

It never did exists for me. Very early examples of people doing latihan and being very ill and dying made this idea irrelevant for me.


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