Subud Vision - Discussion

David Week - Subud without Theology

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From Michael, May 30, 2009. Time 23:25

SD: ""Subud Journal UK is funded by Subud Britain. I imagine the monthly publishing of a talk is the decision of countless National Committees and National Helpers now deeply embedded. That would be hard one to shift now."

Isn't this the real heart of the matter? A global shift of policy and attitude at the WSA level is needed so that countries have new guidelines to work to. If it is just left to individual countries to set their own policy it seems unlikely there will be changes,"

An attitude shift at the WSA level is fine but Congress can not, constitutionally speaking, challenge its members' (the natcoms) right to act as they see fit. Congress could pass a resolution excluding a member but that is a different order of magnitude.

What matters, in my view, is not to see the problem as top-down but rather as bottom up. If enough natcoms following the instructions of enough locals change their policy, then those attitudes can be taken to World Congress for input. That is why I think local structural and procedural changes have to happen first.

From Michael, May 30, 2009. Time 23:32

SD: "So in my set of proposals, the international helpers would not test, as we would first remove the habit of collective decisions through testing. Decisions would be made through discussion and voting and experimentation and monitoring of results, revisiting and revising policy as time went on, not by requiring absolute, unquestioning allegiance to periodic oracular announcements,"

I think that a footnote to that thought is that kejiwaan Councillors would finally get a role. They are on the delegation (in my view) to acts as helpers to individuals in the delgation and to bring their legitimate stakeholder positions in to the frame.

From Michael, May 30, 2009. Time 23:34

SD: "And I meant to say that we shouldn't be testing individuals into helper or committee roles either, for the same reasons,"

I don't think that the org has anything to say about how helpers select other helpers.

From iljas Baker, May 31, 2009. Time 2:39

Sahlan you wrote:

"...supposing the International Helpers are testing a request from WSA as to whether we should drop the official promotion of Bapak's talks within the organisation, even if these helpers were of the highest integrity and detachment, how many of them are going to be able to detach themselves from a decision like that for which they are effectively being asked to take full responsibility? It's not a fair situation for them either and one that almost guarantees no major change will ever get passed..."

Put like this, I agree about the difficulties such a test would pose for the helpers. But if testing was preceded by a widespread consultation (and I agree with Michael about the importance of the local level) about the best way for Subud to achieve our aims it might be different. So you might put forward more than one question for testing, including a test about promoting Bapak's talks through an independent entity. Presumably WSA, or whoever has copyright, would have a major role in ensuring that those who carry out this task do so at an acceptable standard and in an appropriate manner.

There are 4 things we all seem to agree on and form the basis of the discussions:
1. The latihan is for everyone regardless of...
2. Subud is not a religion
3. Bapak is not a guru
4. There is no teaching/doctrine in Subud

Now who says so?

Of course Bapak was the first Subud person to say these things ( and it's interesting how we've accepted some things but not others, but that's a whole different discussion) .

So we could say we all want what Bapak wanted and the discussion is essentially about the best way to achieve this. Deconstructing Bapak's talks and passing on gossip is not, in my view, helpful and is only likely to alienate a large body of the membership.

I haven't made up my mind about the best way to achieve our aims or realise our principles, although I do recognise the desirability of some changes. And certainly I don't feel there a diverse enough range of views on SV to really help me make up my mind so far. It's a pity the views expressed on Subud Vision come from only a few people. There's no one, for example, from WSA, international helpers etc. Or have I missed them?

I think it might be interesting for your team to prepare a consultative document focusing on how best to achieve Bapak's/our aims and disseminate to the membership worldwide (problems abundant I know concerning languages and funding) and not just WSA.I think it would be preferable to get something disseminated before World Congress.

Iljas

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 5:29

Sorry -- Connolly.

Who he, white man? Someone important we all should know about? A Polly Titian, maybe?

Peace, Philip

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 5:41

The group doing the translations at the moment are pretty professional

Are they, really? The first requirement for a professional translator is that he or she have the language they are translating into as their native language. Last I heard the translating team consisted mainly of a native Hungarian speaker, and a native Indonesian (and perhaps Javanese). I suspect an ideal translator would be an English-language native fluent in Indonesian, Javanese and Dutch, which the only person I know who came close to qualifying in that regard who did some of the translations in the first volume was Mansur Medeiros, and he died. Like a few music editions I've encountered, I wouldn't fully trust any of the other translations.

Peace, Philip

Peace, Phil

Peace, Philip

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 5:51

The group doing the translations at the moment are pretty professional

Well, the ones doing the Spanish and Russian (?) editions may be native speakers, but they are retranslating from the English, most likely, which may or may not be reliable.

Peace, Philip

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 6:4

This has been a general discussion, but suppose such a reform did come about, it would probably make sense to expand the role of SPI into the new unit that is being suggested rather than closing down their operation and starting a new one with relatively inexperienced people. I don't see there is anything in the discussion so far that is critical of the role of SPI, we are talking about the policies of Subud as a whole, not trying to get at the people who diligently and sincerely serve Subud.

Well, as I recall, at the Spokane Congress, there were several publications from SPI, or at least being distributed by them, of writings by Subud members other than the founder of the cult, but it seems to have devolved to an operation that puts most, if not all, of its efforts and resources into publishing the translations of the taped lectures of the founder (the same sort of thing that happened to the Pewartas, which used to have stuff in them that held some real interest by other members, but stopped that at the behest of the founder, who implied in a lecture that only his words in them were "spiritual" enough), so it probably should be at the very least renamed as Muhammad Subuh Publications International if it doesn't print and promote stuff by other members.

Peace, Philip

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 6:31

Deconstructing Bapak's talks and passing on gossip is not, in my view, helpful and is only likely to alienate a large body of the membership.

Sometimes "gossip" is the only means to get at the truth. But, leaving that aside, the translators, in the case of the founder's lectures, at least, are often faced with a morass of non sequiturs and clearly false statements, so they have the sometimes Herculean task of making some sort of rational sense out of the originals (and sometimes that's just not possible, given the original words). For a good view of the difficulties involved, look at the"Watch" series on Subudtalk by one of the translators (extending over several years in the early 2000's). You don't have to look at very many of them to realize that there can be literally dozens of problems in a single translation that never get resolved in the printed edition. Looking closely at the "talks" could alienate a large body of the membership to the "talks," which might not be a "bad" thing: If these are the "Words of God," then it's a "God" that I, for one, don't want to have much to do with. When one is "channeling" some source or other, which the founder claimed in several lectures to be doing, then it seems to me to be important what the source or sources are. I intend to write an article for SV on the "latihan" as "channeling" (soon) to expand on that point.

Peace, Philip

From iljas Baker, May 31, 2009. Time 6:34

Billy Connolly is a Glasgow comedian with a penchant for scurrilous material. He is now very poular in Australia (of course) and USA (surprised they can understand him). He has also appeared and indeed starred in a number of movies.

Two examples of his non-offensive material (unless you are a banjo player) which have been related on the Web are:

1.Billy was visiting his home town a few weeks back, he parked his Bentley in the Gorbals.

As he was leaving the car a small lad approached him and said, £10 and i'll look after your car mister.

Billy drew the boy's attention to the back seat of the car, where there was the most vicious looking dog, barking, snarling and slavering from the mouth. See that son, said Billy, that's one of the best guard dogs around, and the only guard I need to look after my car, now bugger off.

As he was walking away, the small boy shouted after him, is it any good at putting out fires.

2.He said he parked his range rover in a car park and left an expensive banjo on the back seat. When he came back the window had been smashed and he thought the banjo had been stolen.
When he looked in there was TWO banjos on the back seat.

And finally a really esoteric joke:

3.He was telling a story about growing up in Partick,Glasgow,and broke off to describe it as being the home of Partick Thistle...."That's Partick Thistle, F.C...cos most Englishmen think they're called Partick Thistle NIL!"

Anonymous!

From Sahlan Diver, May 31, 2009. Time 6:43

I love the banjo joke. That's a bit like, welcome to heaven, here's your harp; welcome to hell, here's your accordion

Sahlan

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 6:46

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 6:51

I dunno how all this relates to the subject at hand, but those Conn alley (where the jazz guys gather to play their horns) jokes remind me of a couple. One, how you tell the difference between an oboe and a bassoon: the bassoon burns longer. And Two, I've often thought of asking the local dealer to borrow a sledge hammer to find out how much a Mercedes bends.

Peace, Philip

From Sahlan Diver, May 31, 2009. Time 7:3

Iljas,

You suggest "if testing was preceded by a widespread consultation (and I agree with Michael about the importance of the local level) about the best way for Subud to achieve our aims it might be different. So you might put forward more than one question for testing, including a test about promoting Bapak's talks through an independent entity. Presumably WSA, or whoever has copyright, would have a major role in ensuring that those who carry out this task do so at an acceptable standard and in an appropriate manner."

Yes, I agree, if we test consultation is important as it gives the possibility to fine tune the questions to their most useful and relevant, but ultimately it comes down to trusting what may be a momentous and fundamental decision to the testing of a few people. I can't see how that mechanism will ever make anything more than relatively small changes possible in practise.

"And certainly I don't feel there a diverse enough range of views on SV to really help me make up my mind so far. It's a pity the views expressed on Subud Vision come from only a few people. There's no one, for example, from WSA, international helpers etc. Or have I missed them?"

Iljas, I agree with what you say and we would like to get more people involved, but there is a problem. Our policy from the outset is that we expect people to make a case for what they are saying. It has not been a habit over the years in Subud for people to make a case. Many are more used to saying that they receive or feel about something, and they have no taste for justifying their point of view in a discussion. I am speaking generally here, not implying anything about WSA or the international helpers. They may feel they can't get involved because that would be like taking sides. However, we could do with new input from other people.

"I think it might be interesting for your team to prepare a consultative document focusing on how best to achieve Bapak's/our aims and disseminate to the membership worldwide (problems abundant I know concerning languages and funding) and not just WSA.I think it would be preferable to get something disseminated before World Congress."

Iljas, I am working on a dcoument to present to the editors for their approval, for publication and distribution before World congress. However the document is not ready yet and so we haven't even discussed strategy and I can't say at this moment what will happen to it.

Sahlan

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 7:10

MI - I don't think that the org has anything to say about how helpers select other helpers.

PQ - Which is precisely the sticking point. Legally speaking, the "helpers" are sort of a bunch of powerless advisers, but in reality they pretty much run the show, except for such things as paying the rent or mortgage. The Congress in session (and/or possibly the WSA board between sessions) could do whatever it wanted about the "helpers" if there was the will to do so, but up to now, the "helper" hierarchy and its rôle remain essentially the same as it was at the time of the founder's death. A "live" organization must evolve to meet the circumstances with which it is faced, otherwise it will either die or slowly devolve, or wither away. That seems to be what's happening to Subud as an organization, though the "latihan" will always exist as long as there are people, being a basic physiological function that is part of the biology to help to balance the organism (bring it closer to homeostasis).

Peace, Philip

From Sahlan Diver, May 31, 2009. Time 7:34

"Feedback was: MI - I don't think that the org has anything to say about how helpers select other helpers."

I'd like to add to what Philip says, directly above. I think I am right in saying that constitutions in Subud were written on the basis that the helpers had at least equal status with the committee in the organisation. These were the two sides which we needed for balance because Subud was a kejiwaan organisation and as such made decisions on the basis that both the mind and receiving had to be taken into account.

I suggest a fundamental revision of this basic idea is needed. No space here to go into all the arguments, which will be found all over Subud Vision from various authors and contributors anyway, but my suggestion is that the helpers become restricted in their role to dealing with the kejiwaan on the individual level, i.e. dealing with applicants, preserving the integrity of the latihan practise, doing personal testing for members on request. They would have no place in the running of the main show.

Also helpers should not be a law unto themselves. Michael says that the org has no place in how helpers select other helpers, but he has also said elsewhere that helpers should not be selected by other helpers but voted in for terms by the members to whom they are responsible, and this would seem to be the right way to do it,

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 31, 2009. Time 12:14

Philip re your:

" the "latihan" will always exist as long as there are people, being a basic physiological function that is part of the biology to help to balance the organism (bring it closer to homeostasis).'

I thought that was a function of the central nervous system and the endocrine system. Can't imagine your introduction to Subud will get inquirers forming lines as long as Jalan Fatmawati, but hey, perhaps having very few expectations they'll stay longer.

Iljas

From iljas Baker, May 31, 2009. Time 15:48

Philip,

My apologies for my latest comment. It gave me a bad feeling when I reread it - it sounded sort of smug. Sorry.

Iljas

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 18:22

Hey, Iljas,

No problemo. Once that balance is achieved and stabilized, the mind clears and the emotions settle, and nothing bothers one one way or the other. No praise, no blame. Like, I just got a call from an old girl friend that I almost married a few years ago, and there was no emotional charge attached to the conversation for me, it was received and given in a state of equilibrium, not overjoyed, not especially hurt. It doesn't mean I don't have thoughts or emotions, but they're not disruptiiv like they used to be. I think that some philosophical basis must be included in that stability, however, and that's something that can only be achieved "outside" of the "latihan" through one's own efforts and speculations about what one encounters in life. In that regard, then, it's comforting to me to have gotten some idea of what the "latihan" actually is, and, for me at least, it has nothing to do with "worship of God", because "God" requires no "worship", that's only a misconception created in the minds of people, like other cultural paradigms that have been dreamed up that have no relationship to reality, for the reality of who and what one is cannot be directly "seen", only experienced. Like Shakespeare said in Julius Sneezer, you can't see your face except by reflection. So, enjoy. I'm off to grope "latihan" now.

Peace, Philip

From Philip Quackenbush, May 31, 2009. Time 18:57

Hi, Iljas,

That balance that I was talking about in previous posts is expressed in the story about the Buddha meeting an assassin standing before him blocking his passage on the road he was on. "Stop!" the assassin yells, menacingly. "You're the one who's moving. I've been still for years," the Buddha replied, and kept on walking, only to die later from eating contaminated meat, maybe fed to him by the newly-"enlightened" assassin (according to the story, probably corrupted a lot from retelling over the millennia, like the hadith about Muhammad and the Biblical stories, which often turn out that way seen in the light of earlier manuscripts, which is why the current pope and the chief rabbi in Israel were so intent for so long in keeping the Dead Sea Scrolls out of the hands of the unwashed).

Peace, Philip

From Michael, June 1, 2009. Time 6:2

IB wrote: "There are 4 things we all seem to agree on and form the basis of the discussions:
1. The latihan is for everyone regardless of...
2. Subud is not a religion
3. Bapak is not a guru
4. There is no teaching/doctrine in Subud

Now who says so?

Of course Bapak was the first Subud person to say these things"

He also said completely contradictory things and set examples for contradictory things. So take your pick! "We all" just like this set.

From Michael, June 1, 2009. Time 6:18

SD: "I think I am right in saying that constitutions in Subud were written on the basis that the helpers had at least equal status with the committee in the organisation. These were the two sides which we needed for balance..."

MI: I am not saying that there are not any such constitutions but I don't know of any. I do know a lot about the WSA Constitution and there is no attempt to create such a balance. See bylaw 1.4 "Temporality Organizations as such are a temporal matter." The helpers are deliberately never defined. They remain invisible except that they are included in lists of positions on councils, delegations, etc.

SD: "...because Subud was a kejiwaan organisation..."...my suggestion is that the helpers become restricted in their role ...They would have no place in the running of the main show."

MI: See bylaw 1.4 again re kejiwaan organization. For me there is no such thing as a "spiritual organization". The 'spirit' can not be organized. As to restricting helpers, the main responsibility for this is on the shoulders of the committee. It is one thing to say that the helpers should refrain but more important the committee should refuse to permit. The helpers have just been allowed to get away with it.

SD: "Michael says...that helpers should not be selected by other helpers but voted in for terms by the members to whom they are responsible"

MI: No didn't say precisely that. I said that the 'members' would vote for a pool from whom the helpers would select their active helpers. They would just be limited to the pool which would be purged of those the members didn't like and contain those the members would like.

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