Subud Vision - Discussion

David Week - Subud without Theology

JON THREE YEARS LATER. From iljas Baker, May 27, 2009. Time 3:29

JON THREE YEARS LATER (AN IMAGINARY CONVERSATION)

Jon: Can I have a word with you?

David (a Helper): Sure. Let's sit over here, it's quiet and private.

Jon: During the latihan I started to cry. I started to think: "Perhaps I am being released from some sort of childhood truama." My latihan stopped. I gathered myself together and it began again. I started to cry. It was a sort of release. Then I was about to say," God forgive me." Well as you know I am an athiest and I've made that clear to everyone in the group. I wasn't about to start asking God for forgiveness. My latihan stopped and I just got caught up in a long train of thought and my latihan never really started again. What's going on? Actually, this has happened a few times now.

David: Well, umm...

Jon: And another thing...I can no longer drink beer like before. After half a pint I feel really heavy. I feel like sleeping. And I can't go near spirits or wine even.

David: Perhaps alcohol is bad for your health and your body is letting you know.

Jon: Some alcohol is supposed to be good for you.

David: Well I suppose it is for some people, but perhaps not for you.

Jon: I don't understand that. My health is great. In fact my latest check-up was extremely positive.

David: Umm...

Jon: And another thing. I don't enjoy sex any more! I used to have sex perhaps 4 times a week. usually with at least two different partners. Females of course and one partner at a time. Completely consensual, safe sex. Both of us enjoyed it, it was fun, nothing serious. But last time I couldn't, you know, perform...It was embarrassing. That's why I got my health checked. There was nothing wrong. No sign of stress. Could it be the latihan that's causing these changes?

David: Umm...Why should the latihan have these kind of effects?

Jon: That's what I'm asking you, you're the helper. Is there something you haven't told me.

David: Umm...

Jon: Is there?

From Merin Nielsen, May 27, 2009. Time 10:45

JON 3 YEARS LATER. From Merin Nielsen

Jon: Can I have a word with you?

Machmud (a Helper): Sure. Let's sit over here, it's quiet and private.

Jon: During the latihan I started to cry. I started to think: "Perhaps God is purifying me." My latihan stopped. I gathered myself together and it began again. I started to cry. It was a sort of release. Then I was about to say, "My subconscious is becoming conscious." Well as you know I am a God-believer and I've made that clear to everyone in the group. I wasn't about to start leaving God out of the picture. My latihan stopped and I just got caught up in a long train of thought and my latihan never really started again. What's going on? Actually, this has happened a few times now.

Machmud: Well, umm...

Jon: And another thing... I can now drink beer like never before. After half a pint I feel like having a whole pint. I feel like dancing. And I can even drink spirits and wine.

Machmud: Perhaps alcohol is good for your health and your body is letting you know.

Jon: Some alcohol is supposed to be bad for you.

Machmud: Well I suppose it is for some people, but perhaps not for you.

Jon: I can understand that. My health is great. In fact my latest check-up was extremely positive.

Machmud: Umm...

Jon: And another thing. I'm really enjoying sex these days -- guilt free! I used to have sex perhaps 4 times a year with my wife. Last month we were both into it like rabbits. Both of us enjoyed it, it was fun, nothing serious. In the past I couldn't, you know, perform... It was embarrassing, but now it's fantastic. I wondered if I was okay, so I got my health checked. There was nothing wrong. No sign of burn out. Could it be the latihan that's causing these changes?

Machmud: Umm... Why should the latihan have these kinds of effects?

Jon: That's what I'm asking you, you're the helper. Is there something you haven't told me.

Machmud: Umm...

Jon: Is there?

From Sahlan Diver, May 27, 2009. Time 11:21

JON AGAIN (AN IMAGINARY CONVERSATION)

Jon: Can I have a word with you?

Gurnard: (a Helper): Sure. Let's sit over here, it's quiet and private.

Gurnard: Are you saying that you find these experiences troubling because they seem to be religious, yet you wish to continue being an atheist? If so, don't worry about it. Just keep following whatever you do in the latihan. Don't resist it. People have all sorts of experiences in the latihan. For example, I am the worst singer in the world, yet I sing quite well in latihan, but I don't think that means the latihan is telling me to be a singer. You have to be careful with your interpretations. The founder of Subud gave talks in which he said that the latihan freed us of faults we have inherited from our ancestors. If that's true, then your calling out for God's forgiveness could be releasing an ancestor from overbearing feelings of religious guilt. Maybe you had an ancestor who was a torturer for the Spanish inquisition! Seriously though, I forgot you were an atheist, so you won't go for the ancestors in the after-life theory, anyway. On the other hand, if you feel that the changes brought about in yourself by the latihan are leading you towards religion, then that's fine also. The latihan is not a fixed teaching. If you feel your life develops for the better as a result then follow wherever you want it to lead you. Only if you do find a religion, please don't try to convert the rest of us to it!

Jon: And another thing...I can no longer drink beer like before. After half a pint I feel really heavy. I feel like sleeping. And I can't go near spirits or wine even.

Gurnard: The latihan has been known to have an effect on people's health and life habits. Could quite likely be the latihan. Or it might be that because of age and lifestyle changes you no longer have the same energy and desire for a lot of drink. If you are suggesting that the latihan is telling you drink is immoral, I would be sceptical. I used to make a point of not drinking. Then I came to realise I was doing it to prove my moral superiority. I am convinced that the long term effect of the latihan has lessened my desire to prove my moral worth to others, so I now drink moderately instead of not at all.

Jon: Some alcohol is supposed to be good for you.

Gurnard: That's the medical opinion, but that's no consolation to people who don't drink because of their religion!

Gurnard: The latihan can have an effect on character and attitudes to yourself and others. Perhaps this is not a physical change in you, or a change in desire, but a change in your character causing you to be more considerate of your partner(s). Do you think your casual attitude to sex was shared equally by them? Perhaps they were looking for more of a relationship or committment from you, and that now you are becoming more aware of that, because of changes the latihan is bringing about.

Jon: Does that mean the latihan is again leading me to religion.

Gurnard: Well if you feel that a religion is now right for you, then why not follow that path? But having a better character and better attitudes is not the sole right of the religious is it?

Jon: That's what I'm asking you, you're the helper. Is there something you haven't told me.

Gurnard: It's not possible to tell you everything about the latihan, because its action is individual. You may have experiences through it that myself or no other helper in this group has had. If we start to tell you experiences in a way that suggests you are amiss if you don't think or behave like this or that, then we are doing the latihan a disservice. That doesn't mean I am against religious morality, just that these are matters for the individual conscience.

From iljas Baker, May 27, 2009. Time 13:32

Jon: Actually, you're the third helper I've talked with about these kinds of changes and I have had a different answer each time. It's confusing. Perhaps I'll start reading Bapak's talks :-)

From Merin Nielsen, May 27, 2009. Time 13:53

Machmud: Great, and perhaps try not to enjoy life so much. It can't be spiritually healthy.

From Sahlan Diver, May 27, 2009. Time 22:2

Gurnard: Jon, if you are going to read Bapak's talks then as a helper I need to give you some advice about the right way to read or listen to them. The recommendation is to quieten yourself and listen to the talks as if you were in a state of latihan, i.e. trying to receive at the same time. However people often misinterpret this and think that they should absorb what Bapak says uncritically as if it were some holy truth. Westerners are mainly not aware of Bapak's cultural background, but if they were aware of it they would find that much of what he says is unsurprising given his religious, cultural and generational background. A few statements may even be considered to be based on ill-inforemd prejudice. As you seem to be indicating a new direction for yourself, a leaning towards religion, I am concerned that you might make Bapak's talks into a substitute religion - there is certainly enough religious content in them for you to be able to do that. If you do read Bapak, I hope you'll read the talks where he advises people to have a religion, and you will see that he means the standard religions - he never advises them to make Subud or his own pronouncements into their religion.

People like to have certainty. You have had different answers to your questions and that seems to worry you - you want a definitive answer, so you say you will now read Bapak. If that provides the definitive answer it is because you will have yourself given it the status of the definitive answer. But a lot of what is said in the talks and in Bapak's letters was said to particular individuals at a particular time and place. Be careful not to make what you read into a rule. Remember that you didn't come into Subud because you had read a scripture and experienced a conversion as a result, you came into it to experience a unique exercise which itself would be your teacher. Some experiences and changes on the way may seem puzzling and unfamiliar, but that is part of the process. Keep at it.

From iljas Baker, May 28, 2009. Time 0:29

Jon: Thanks for the advice Sahlan. I don't think there's much danger of me turning Bapak's talks into a substitute religion but I guess some people do that. Such is life. By the way, what made you think I am a Westerner? I am Chinese from Hong Kong. But I must say I've noticed a tendency for certain Subud people to make all sorts of assumptions about other Subud people they don't really know, i.e. they are not enjoying life, they are Westerners and probably gullible when it comes to exotic ideas. An American Muslim member once told me that when certain Subud people know he is a Muslim they tend to assume he is a fanatic, a killjoy or simply a Bapak imitator. It does make communication quite difficult at times, he said.

From David W, May 28, 2009. Time 7:18

Of course, all these conversations are imaginary, and so… the work of your imaginations. (Very clever, and witty too!)

Here's a real enquirer:

"However, in those pre-latihan sessions I found there was a preponderance of Islamic culture, and what seemed to be an overwhelming presence of Muslims among the helpers that I felt some unease. Added to that, all the helpers had such a high regard for Mohammed Subuh that to me, the listener, it came across as not just adulating him, but Subuh had in fact been “deified”. Still I persisted Thursday after Thursday. In fact, I enjoyed coming to the pre-latihan sessions. If this is the “pearl of great price”, I wanted it, especially when it was claimed that Subud is not a religion, and people of all creeds would receive it because the latihan is universal."

And that's the difference between imagination and reality.

Iljas, the message I get from many (not all older members is: "I don't have to change." I don't think that is consistent with either human growth and development, or

I think you're labeling as an atheist, which I feel is inaccurate. I find both theism and atheism largely irrelevant, other than as indicators of how the human mind works. On the other hand, I do set a great store on integrity, and I don't support a community that says one thing, and does another: consistently, repeatedly, and without reflection (though I suspect, a great deal of shame.)

Best

David

From Sahlan Diver, May 28, 2009. Time 7:31

Iljas,

As you had devised an interesting pretend situation here as a way of commenting on David's article, you can forgive me for not guessing all the intended details correctly. In my version of the pretend situation (do you actually know any helpers called Gurnard?), Jon IS a Westerner. Certainly years ago, many of us Westerners, including myself, thought that, for example, Bapak's teaching about the lower forces was original. I don't think the accusation is that people are gullible, just insufficiently informed. Just because ideas evolve from a number of traditions does not mean they are wrong or fanciful or not useful. For example, Bapak's explanations about the lower forces made a lot of sense to me when I first came into Subud, and still do. But being better informed about Bapak's cultural background, gives me a different approach to the content of the talks than I would have had in the past,

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 28, 2009. Time 9:8

David, I think we agree on quite a few things but definitely my religious worldview would seem to set us apart on a number of issues. I would hope nevertheless we could have respect for each other and have cordial relations.

I think there are always people resistant to change and organizations resistant to change. Actually many of the things that bug you probably bug me but I have a different interpretation. If people deify Bapak than clearly my religious (Islamic by and large) worldview rejects that as their wrong thinking and clearly contradicts Islamic thought on 'shirk' or associating anyone or anything with God. If people take Bapak's talks and teachings as dogma to be studied and spouted forth then I find that sad because I do not think that was Bapak's intention and I believe it prevents their own spiritual development. Bapak's talks for me contain guidance and advice which I have found extremely useful.

I am not calling you an atheist, I don't know you. I see you, rightly or wrongly, as having, for want of a better phrase, a secular worldview.

I can understand your discomfort being in a predominantly Muslim group. I too feel uncomfortable with Muslims at times but because they are overbearing and narrow minded not because they are Muslims, i.e. because they are a particular kind of Muslim. I have no interest in changing Islam although the ideas of Muslims is another matter.

I feel the Subud debate has become somewhat polarized and can't see any common ground. Do you think there is some? Are we beginning to assume we know what each other is thinking once we have labeled them or indeed once they have labeled themselves? This appears to me to be the case, which is a pity.

Sahlan, I was just illustrating a point. I think Bapak's talks contain a mixture of ideas, some more original, some less original. But for me originality is not the point. I didn't come to Subud to study comparative religion. In fact one of the great gifts the latihan has brought me is the feeling that study has no importance in my spiritual development. I used to fervently study Buddhism and Anthroposophy and later Sufism etc thinking the more I learned somehow the more enlightened I would become. Thankfully I have forgotten almost everything I have learned of those things. Bapak gives a rough framework which i find useful. He himself never claimed it was original but that as a Muslim brought up in a certain type of Muslim culture that was the language he used. But I do assume he was not just parroting his culture and that he had verified the ideas he was communicating. Some of what he says I can't definitely say it's true or not and I don't think he wanted me to accept everything just because he said it. I value my own receiving and that includes things I have received in the latihan about Bapak and that shapes my attitude towards him. I am not referring to any particularly mystical experience just a simple exchange of information between the latihan and me, if that makes sense. I don't see any wrong in saying these concepts Bapak used are also found in Sufism etc. Indeed wasn't it Bapak who once said the Aztecs had knowledge of the concepts Bapak was using (I'm paraphrasing of course). There is no prohibition on this search for parallel thinking, concepts etc. But for me all of that doesn't lessen Bapak. Nor does it greatly interest me because it doesn't add anything to my latihan, which is what I value most and it was Bapak who brought it and for that reason I will be eternally grateful to him.

I meant this to be a two liner at most. My apologies if I sound like a know all or someone who thinks of himself as special or if there's any hint of conversion fever. I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms!

Sincerely,

Iljas

From marcus Bolt, May 28, 2009. Time 9:18

Hi Sahlan

I feel the same about Bapak's explanations. A useful tool, not dissimilar to Astrology, Steiner's 'humours', the nine Enogram types and so on.

Here's a quote from Yalom's 'Existential Psychotherapy': < Therapists may offer the patient any number of explanations to clarify the same issue; each may be made from a different frame of reference (for example, Freudian, Jungian, Horneyan, Sullivanian, Adlerian, and transactional analytic) and each may be 'true' in that each provides an explanation that begets a sense of potency. > And here I would like to interject: Animism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, as well as Scientology, Subud etc ...

Yalom continues: < None, despite vehement claims to the contrary, has sole rights to the truth. After all, they are all based on imaginary 'as if' structures. They all say, "You are behaving (or feeling) as if such and such a thing were true".

< The super ego, the id, the ego, the archetypes, the idealised and the actual selves, the pride system; the self system and the dissociated system, the masculine protest; parent, child and adult ego states – none of these really exists...> and again I'd like to interject: soul, jiwa, nafsu, karma, reincarnation, the Sufi four forces et al...

Yalom continues:
< They are all fictions, all psychological constructs created for semantic convenience, and they justify their existence only by virtue of their explanatory power. The concept of the will provides a central organizing principle for these diverse explanatory systems. They all act by the same mechanism: they are effective to the degree that they afford a sense of personal mastery and thus inspirit the dormant will. >

(This from a section in the book where he is dealing how 'change' happens in therapy by stimulating the will to action/decision. This is neatly summed up in the US psycho-slang adage 'If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got.')

Bapak suggested returning to one's religion (or adopting one). I took the advice; my 'religion' is psychotherapy, and I experience something similar to what Iljas' friend experiences when I mention this to Subud members - a look of horror and out comes the garlic and the wooden crosses...

Marcus

From Sahlan Diver, May 28, 2009. Time 9:39

" But I do assume he was not just parroting his culture and that he had verified the ideas he was communicating."

Iljas, I also think Bapak wasn't parrotting and that he was using concepts and terms familiar from his own culture to illustrate points that have spiritual depth and meaning, but I would say the interpretation of the word "verified" in your above phrase gives a clue as to the sticking point between the different sides, because if too much emphasis is placed on Bapak's assumed access to a higher truth then we detract from that which is truly unique about the latihan, that it doesn't require a teacher or alignment with any particular world view.

There is the latihan, the spiritual status of Bapak and the form in which the latihan is currently organised and promoted (i.e. the organisation called Subud). I don't think there is much disagreement about the value of the latihan, the status of Bapak we can have different ideas about, but the problem is the form in which the latihan is packaged. The majority of Subud members I think see no reason to change this - they wouldn't go along for example with Merin's ideas for reducing the status that the organisation gives to Bapak's talks. For this reason I think Subud cannot grow because it lacks the imagination to consider the possible benefits of alternative approaches. I don't say that Subud will die out, just that it will continue to be a very small minority interest. We are not serving Bapak's mission to spread the latihan by tolerating this situation. Two years ago when Subud Vision started I was probably a lone voice in suggesting a plan B, a new organisation to start with a fresh approach and learning from Subud's mistakes. Now I sense a growing interest and frustration from people who would have formerly rejected the idea out of hand as not being desirable,

Sahlan

From iljas Baker, May 28, 2009. Time 13:13

Sahlan, I don't think the belief that Bapak had access to knowledge most of us can only dream of doesn't necessarily only lead to one conclusion. Certainly for me I presume that belief makes it somehow easier for me to take Bapak's advice more seriously than say I might take yours :-) or most other people I meet at latihan. Bapak does for me talk, to use a Charles Olson phrase, as one who has authority. I cannot deny that. But again it doesn't mean I can't appreciate that others don't see things that way.

One critical issue is how do we protect the integrity of the latihan - do we need to talk about what is meant by this? But I presume that for all of us the latihan is the number one value. Bapak can't develop my soul (or whatever language you choose) but the latihan can. As developing my soul is my main interest then it follows that I must value the latihan over Bapak. And I think Bapak has stated this in other words. So how do we protect the integrity of the latihan? Well for me Bapak's talks have a very important role here and I guess this is the position many of us conservatives take and is a major sticking point. Not the only role mind you.

Why do I think that Bapak's talks have an important role to play?

1. He "brought" the latihan and passed it on.
2. He's certainly had more experience of the latihan than any of us when we were opened - that qualified him as a guide in my opinion.
3. His explanations in his talks of the latihan go beyond what I or most helpers I know have experienced (unless they are not letting on) and as such he can be considered as someone who has had the fullest experience of what the latihan can accomplish - that still qualifies him as a guide in my opinion.

Let me stop there. I've never had to write anything like this before so I don't want to go on and on. If you share my views and can think of other reasons please put them forward.

If you answer and don't share my views can you please think about reaching a place we might be able to agree on and not just reject. For example, although I don't have any attraction to psychotherapy, when Marcus (hello Marcus) says his religion is psychotherapy I wouldn't join the rush for garlic and crucifixes because I can see that many psychotherapists hold some of the highest values that we cherish - integrity, respect, love, work etc so I would say if psychotherapy helps him to be more at peace with himself and society then fine by me.

Iljas

From Sahlan Diver, May 28, 2009. Time 13:57

Iljas,

First we have to agree of what is meant by protecting the integrity of the latihan. My checklist would be of things that allow the latihan to proceed for individuals latihaning in a group situation in a free and undisturbed manner.

This would include at least:

1 Advice to do on average a max of 2 per week, with one from home
2 Latihan length is 30 minutes approximately
3 Men and women latihan separately
4 Latihan facilities that are private and considerate of the needs of some to not feel inhibited (i.e. closed curtains, dimmed lighting if some prefer it etc )
4 A short quiet period before the latihan
5 Somebody can say Begin and Finish if the group deem it convenient
6 Personally I favour some sort of helper system to guard the integrity of the latihan, assist with testing, be responsible for applicants, but I am interested in substantial reform not just of the helper system but of our attitudes to what is the kejiwaan i.e. I would like to see dropped the practise of testing being allowed to override or determining collective decision making etc etc, but that is for another discussion.
7 Nobody tries to direct the latihan, or set themselves up as some sort of guru to align the latihan with a specific teaching.

I expect there are other points that I might come up with, but I can't think of anything that isn't supported by Subud's experience of 50 years and by fundamental principles that we probably wouldn't have any difficulty agreeing on. That is, I can't think of any compelling reason for needing major input from Bapak nowadays in order to guard the integrity of the basic latihan practise.

But when you say: "His explanations in his talks of the latihan go beyond what I or most helpers I know have experienced ...- that still qualifies him as a guide in my opinion."

Are you saying
a) that unless we read and absorb that guidance we won't be able to receive as much in the latihan?
or
b) he is teaching us valuable information about the spiritual that we are unlikely to get to finding out ourselves? If so, how does it help us?

What I am saying is that nowadays there is enough established good practise that people can latihan and receive the benefit without needing a guide to keep them on the straight and narrow. That part of Bapak's mission has been successful at least,

Sahlan

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