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Subud Vision - Discussion

David Week - Subud without Theology

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From Philip Quackenbush, July 22, 2008. Time 21:8

Hi, Rochanah,

You said,

-- Hey, if Subud ever decides to give a fair explanation of what it is or is not, and agrees to share many people's experiences in that explanation, I would hope that it would include the experiences of the many people who have stopped doing the latihan after giving half or more of their lives to the subud organization and spent 20-40 years within the belief system.

Well, that's what we're getting a bit of a dose of here, available to anyone who wants to subscribe to the site, isn't it? Whether it becomes common in "mainstream" Subud (which is a small stream at best in the world's "spiritual" waters, obviously) remains to be seen (as the undertaker said). As you know, I stopped doing "latihan" for a couple of years or more myself a couple of times, once by the dissolution of the local group and my own laziness to do it on my own, and once by choice, when I decided I'd had enough of the rigid attitudes that I kept encountering in people who supposedly were "progressing" "spiritually".

I've subsequently come to the understanding that, in a sense it's true that you can't quit the "latihan", because everyone has it, it's just more or less manifest and/or active in one's individual life, and a Subud member is perhaps a little more likely to be aware of its process in his or her life. There is so much imagining of the "latihan" being somehow special or unique to Subud and some or all of its members being somehow special, too, that it is sometimes sickening to behold, but the nice thing about the cult is that it's possible to withdraw from it to whatever degree one wishes at any time, which makes it a more benign cult than most. Enjoy.

Peace, Philip


From Merin Nielsen, July 23, 2008. Time 10:36

Dear Sjahari,

You wrote:
> What you say above about how you think we should explain subud to an atheist, is the wrong conclusion to be drawn from what I wrote previously.
> .... In this circumstance it becomes even more important to be clear and upfront that this is a spiritual path.

As you know, Subud is not a religion. It is completely inappropriate for a helper to tell an atheist (or a person who has never had religious thoughts) that practicing latihan is ‘spiritual’, because this is tantamount to advising the enquirer to adopt some kind of religious belief system.

You wrote:
> Subud is a spiritual path and it is based on a deep spiritual experience.

Again, this is an entirely personal perspective -- which no helper should impose on enquirers.

You wrote:
> In order to follow this path and get something from it the practitioner must have a deep faith.

You’re suggesting that every latihan practitioner ipso facto has ‘faith’. I consider this nonsense. I understand everyday trust, patience and sincerity, but this word seems pulled out of the air. In my opinion, ‘faith’ has no necessary connection with practising latihan, and appears to be a diversion from the topic. You began this thread with reference to “entering a spiritual realm” -- but then said you had no idea what ‘spiritual’ means -- but then said you could explain it after all, but that your explanation would always differ according to context -- and so you couldn’t offer an explanation here.

You wrote:
> An atheist would not be interested in subud unless he had somewhere in his heart a question about the validity of his disbelief.
> Unless he was willing to temporarily give up his disbelief and check it out.

I consider this obviously plain wrong. I also find it an astonishingly presumptuous assertion! How on Earth would YOU know?

You wrote:
> However the thing about it is that one really cannot experience the latihan without the belief. Without the faith.

Again, how would YOU know?

You wrote:
> This path is no different from other spiritual paths….

And again, how would YOU know?

You wrote:
> Bapak spoke about "submission, surrender, patience" as the essential core starting point for the latihan. These are all techniques of faith,
> because -- what are you submitting to? what are you surrendering to? And why would you submit and surrender if you did not have faith?

First, it seems what you might be talking about is simply some sort of religious belief in a higher power. But you’re not saying latihan requires THAT, are you? Second, please, I hope you won’t mind my using just one of these words -- say, ‘submit’ -- rather than ‘submit and surrender’. Third, bungy-jumping. When submitting myself to the bungy cord, I have trust in the laws of nature. Likewise when it comes to latihan. In this light, what you call ‘faith’ would appear to mean ordinary trust.

You wrote:
> These are essential core elements of an explanation of subud. They must be given, and even more importantly to an atheist.

This opinion is totally unsupported and runs against the principles of Subud. Whether you are referring to ‘faith’ or ‘spirituality’, it is gratuitous and potentially quite improper to routinely impose such concepts.

Merin


From Merin Nielsen, July 24, 2008. Time 0:46

Hi, Sjahari,

Some extra thoughts.

When first bungy-jumping, as when first latihaning, I submit myself to the laws of nature because I trust the past experiences of other people. This trust, which you obscurely link to 'faith', is just normal trust, with no call for airs of religious piety.

Submit and surrender are simply verbs that often get associated with latihan because words are needed, but no words are adequate. I think you're applying such verbs naively, and then invoking the dictionary to justify a connection between latihan and believing in some 'spiritual realm' or higher power TO WHICH a person submits.

It's easier, and I find better, to regard submission as part and parcel of latihan itself, with no separate demand for preliminary beliefs. Otherwise you're seriously distorting the nature of Subud as an organisation that imposes no claims and is non-religious.

I was shocked to read your statement:
> An atheist would not be interested in subud unless he had somewhere in his heart a question about the validity of his disbelief.
> Unless he was willing to temporarily give up his disbelief and check it out.

I know this is absurd because I'm an atheist, and nowhere in my heart is there any question about the validity of my, ah, 'disbelief'.

Thanks for letting me have the last word, though I'd still like to know your response to my previous post.

Merin


From Bronte, July 25, 2009. Time 13:44

I have the last word here again-for a minute or two.
Anyone who has had an eye on the bunight going on this month by the usurpers on the anti-Subud site would see one version of me going naked to the wind with my wild semi-conventional beliefs.

What puzzles me is why do so many Subud people find it so necessary to strip Subud of everything that surrounded it during its "pregnancy", that is, while Bapak was nurturing it.?
We had, in our town, an atheist who had great latihans, very active ones, leave when he fond out that Subud has a Theology. How he ever joined I'd like to know.
And now you are being shown the most rabid Christian anti-Subud dogma I have even seen, but pretty well always knew. I reason my latihans my way and you yours. But what really is left to this whole thing if you just strip out the foundation which, it seems to me, gave Bapak at least half an excuse for doing all he did. Do you really thing the vehicle of Subud will run better if it has just an engine and a chassis and no body or comfort fittings?
Merin especially, whose opinions I try to respect, if only to earn a tiny bit of the respect he has shown me, I puzzle a lot about. But he -you - have stuck in there because the engine seems to be running, and is taking your-- somewhere?
Peace
Bronte


From Merin, July 26, 2009. Time 12:0

Hi, Bronte,

As things are, Subud involves the latihan plus Bapak's theology, but the latihan 'works' without theology -- the belief system is superfluous. Perhaps Subud got a boost in getting started thanks to Bapak spicing up the presentation with so many spiritual tidbits, but we don't need them. Without the latihan, Subud would be nothing, but without Subud, the latihan would still be useful.

Everybody has their own belief system, and what suits one person might not suit another. It could appear strange for an atheist to be a latihan practitioner, especially if the latihan is assumed to come from a certain God-basis. However, that assumption is dubious.

Instead of your motor-car metaphor, how about if we're all sailboats on the bay (or the ocean)? Different riggings are available to help us catch the wind, and one of the handy riggings is the latihan. It's available through Subud, but Subud also promotes the notion that we all need to sail in a certain direction. This is the theological baggage, which says there's somewhere we need to get to. In reality, whatever the rigging, we can each take any direction we like, and maybe no particular direction -- just enjoying sailing around.

So, you can simply sail for pleasure. Then, however, the sailboats that are all heading in one direction can't understand what you're up to, because you appear to be directionless. And since a sailboat can't quite stop seeing itself as an individual, it seems natural that it should be concerned about where it gets to before, say, nightfall.

But there's another way to extend this metaphor. You can also see yourself as the whole flotilla of sailboats, or even as the whole scene. In that case, where you happen to end up at nightfall won't matter, because you'll always be moving on -- as the wind.

Cheers,
Merin


From marcus Bolt, July 26, 2009. Time 12:20

Hi Merin

Love the metaphor... sums up my position pretty much (except I still believe I'm in the 'mystical wind' I joined for and have rediscovered after 40 years, thanks to a devastating, life-changing brush with Subud Trubies and my subsequent SubudVision deconstruction).

Your analogy reminded me of something my tutor said to me on a psychotherapy course I took, namely: "You must learn to take your sails out of their wind."

Marcus


From Bronte, July 27, 2009. Time 1:15

Well whatever I like or want to believe, some of your opinions I can claim to be working in practice, for me.
I claim I "can't", or "would not dare" attend group latihan. Yet I claim that the latihan is still "real", or "relevant" for me. At the same time, the many members, especially the helper-level officials, whose actions I have watched as they destroyed people's self esteem, and our Subud group, do sometimes emphasise that I am not "in Subud"
So, I am "latihan without Subud", just as you describe it. I do usually find that any latihan with a member is stronger, but that is another question. So too is the theology. the "Logic of God", involved with Subud. And while I suspect you do not bother with the anti-Subud site, I have, and anyone may well question my motive there. I just want to think there is a purpose in Subud, just as I want to think there is a purpose in life. Many would deny there is either. I would not accept that.
Hence my own analogy. Yours works for you, but it does not fulfill my needs. That would be obvious to anyone trying to fathom my purpose in writing anywhere about Subud. So we may have to perssit with some disagreements, but not be too conflicted about it. If I managed that it would be a better state than I have achieved with the local members, and certain others I won't mention again today.


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