Subud Vision - Discussion

Andrew Hall - Reading Bapak’s Talks

Discussion continued from this page

From bronte, April 8, 2008. Time 10:2

Dear Subud brother.
"the community that inflicted the wrong", but is it possible to spell out any respective wrong that was inflicted by our Subud community -- as a community? Maybe, I'm not sure. It could be argued that Subud has repeated and acted upon Pak Subuh's prejudices, as David says, but it seems hard to pin down the ways in which the Subud organisation may have perpetrated these injustices. "

Hereby I pin it down firmly and decisively!!

It was from your own group that an official-epistle was sent forth stating the edict that a particular gay person was not suitable to be a helper, despite his group helpers having asked him to become one.
That is how the Subud organisation inflicts its anti-gay attitudes on ALL the members.
As well as by not making the slightest attempt to apply a sense of justice and fairness to other conflicts, letting them fester un-impeded for decades.
Those things definitly need attention.
David Week has, as National chairman, made what effort he can.

Sometimes I think a lawyer would do a better job of creating justice in Subud than the fity+ years of members have managed to do. But who wants lawyers instead of good human interaction? Oops! We don't want them, but we seem to need them.

From Merin Nielsen, April 8, 2008. Time 13:3

Hi, Bronte,

You've mentioned the letter to me before, but I know little about it. I recall who sent it, but was it sent on behalf of a certain Subud group, of some larger Subud community, of some dewan (such as the Australian national helpers), or of an individual? Among Subud's levels and sub-organisations, bunches of individuals sometimes act in the name of the Subud community, but off their own bat. Communication lines in Subud have always been lousy, most especially between helpers and the rest of us.

Best wishes,

From bronte, April 8, 2008. Time 13:36

The reason why I saw fit to again mention this boring piece of Subud hisory was that it's main subject matter was being discussed here AND it was an official act of the top level- KejCounc - acting on behalf of the National Helpers, as a team NOT an individual act, but a Policy Implimentation of the Australian National Kejiwaan body, and as such is an archetypical example of how this organisation I no longer trust worked at that time, now over twelve yers ago, just as was the official request for helpers to hand in their cards because that same body dissapproved of their behaviour in something even earlier than that, which left two respected "senior" members, among others but not including me, devastated, and to this day unhealed over the treatment they recieved. Likewise the on-going behaviour, based on a gross misunderstanding, and treatment of myself and some others by certain members, or member, here and alsewhere.
Note that it was a rebuff to the group that wanted a new helper, who Bapak had once asked to be a helper anyway, not just to an indiviual, and there was no right of reply or appeal offerred. Hence my reference to lawyers.
And look too at the story on this site of of Solihin Millin, for an example of how NOT to treat people in Subud by the Official Kejiwaan body.

My own up-bringing and religious backgroud is such that I am conditioned to expect one on one dialoge before action, some consideration of the feelings and motives of the individuals, and a fair hearing of all parties concerned. That did NOT occur, and still has not. It felt like an action more to be expected in the army, and I've been there, remember.

In future the Subud organisation will grow and flourish if it changes it's behaviour to be less dictatorial, and more caring and open to the member's motives and feelings.

From Sahlan Diver, April 8, 2008. Time 14:5

It is about time that Subud had a mechanism in place for dealing with grievances, and especially with long-term grievances, which are a special case. I suggest that either before or at the next World Congress, WSA should request that each country set up an impartial committee of enquiry into long-term disputes, grievances or problems, with the aim of seeking understanding and resolution. The committees would do their work and then report back to WSA on the results, so that the effectiveness of the process could be monitored.

We, as a group who claim to be interested in harmony, are clearly poor at resolving problems, and I suggest this has an historical cause. Members in the 60's and especially in the 70's were heavily influenced by Bapak's talks, which many of us were fortunate to hear live because of his world tours. We were given an expectation that as long as we did our latihan diligently and put the idea of harmony first and foremeost then everything would work out well by itself. In practise this has caused us to walk away from disputatious situations - the side raising the complaint could easily be blamed for not playing the harmony game. And as the years pass it becomes easier still to blame the other side - we can say (patronisingly) - why can't you learn to forgive and forget? But if a wrong has been done, it remains a wrong, and requires to be addressed.

Many members believe that Subud has a contribution to make to the world, and in particular to world peace. Will this be possible unless we can first develop the necessary skill for resolving our own problems?

From Andrew Hall, April 9, 2008. Time 13:5

Dear all,
I appreciate very much Michael Irwin's last reply to me which is on the previous page.

Thank-you, Michael, for talking about your feelings when these events were happening. I'm not sure I could have done anything differently if I were there at the time.

But I sure want to change things now.

Thanks, as well, to Bronte for his story. I'm not familiar with what happened in Australia, but it sure sounds as if hurt feelings are very much alive.

I wonder if the Subud people concerned might consider trying an aboriginal healing circle? This is something that we have here in North America where the people involved have the satisfaction of listening to and acknowledging each other's feelings.

As far as the "perpetrators" of the hurt are concerned, I think I can imagine they were acting as they thought they should - trying to be loyal to Bapak, do what is right, open to the guidance of the Almighty, etc. They are not bad people, they were doing the best they could at the time.

It doesn't erase nor excuse Bronte's hurt and raging sense of injustice, not at all. This needs to be healed.

Thank you all for sharing,

Andrew Hall
Ottawa, Canada

From LEONARD WELLS, September 24, 2008. Time 23:59

'Sex is neither for pleasure nor fun, NO!'
Bapak said. Unfortunately it IS both and is at the same time a very powerful and addictive drug. If you start by injecting a drug into your arm, it is more than likely that you will continue to be addicted in that way.Many people can't give up smoking -it is so powerfully addictive. One can't be blamed therefore if some clot tells you that God made you that way so it is normal and natural to smoke.
For many many reasons people are tempted to experiment with the same sex -it has less significant consequences in terms of pregnancy etc -but, like trying your first cigarette,the consequencies can be a habit you can't kick.It is the same with Cocaine,Heroin etc.The Bible states that the 'flesh is weak'-actually it is enormously strong which is why it needs the chains of marriage to control it.
The medical profession gave up trying to do anything about sexuality a long time ago so we only have amatuer experts to
advise us.Why do'nt we stand up for the right to be a Cocaine addict?

From Merin Nielsen, September 25, 2008. Time 11:30

The Puritans warned us, but certain so-called friends told me it was pleasant and okay. Oh, the first time I listened to Bach, I never thought it would affect me, but before long I was into Beethoven, and eventually Rachmaninov. I know I'm weak, so weak - I've tried to kick the habit by chaining myself to Bapak talks, but the yearning for sensual relief just builds up even more. I can't last even a month without being tempted back to the shameful addiction of sweet melody and warm harmony. Oh - oh, where's my Gershwin?

Add Feedback to this page / Communicate with us

Use the form below to

Very sorry but feedback forms now permanently closed on the Subud Vision site