Subud Vision - Discussion
Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud
Dropping things that hold us back. From Stefan, January 3, 2008. Time 15:55
Hi Lilliana,
Rereading your article I'm enjoying it enormously. You compress a lot of experience and give a terrific overview of points that other Subud Vision articles raise.
The questioning and dropping of things that hold us back seems to be the most difficult part, since people are so reluctant to discard something based on Bapak's cherished words. Part of my intention is to get our organisation to update its official stance towards lesbians and gays. If we can do this I'll be over the moon, as it will be a concrete demonstration of Subud's collective ability to move with the times and evolve in understanding.
"We are Subud; we can question and change what supports who we are, and drop what doesn’t. We can become more relevant and connected to the place and times we live in, and to the wider community."
Your summary would suit me very well as a mission statement for Subud over the next 2 years.
Best wishes from Stefan
From David W, January 4, 2008. Time 3:1
Hi Stefan
You may be interested in the following from an anonymous (but known to me, and highly reliable) source:
QUOTE
In Portland in 2000, the Congress passed the following motion: "Congress adopts the following non-discrimination policy: Subud U.S.A. does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation."
There was a second motion as follows: "The non-discrimination policy adopted by this Congress should be properly presented to the next Subud U.S.A. business Congress for inclusion in the Bylaws of Subud U.S.A."
At the next National Congress, in Chicago in 2002, a resolution to amend the by laws of Subud USA to include the the non-discrimination policy (with some rewording) was "properly presented" to Congress, and passed!
The minutes of the 2002 National Congress show what passed:
The delegates passed the following Subud USA bylaw additions:
Article III: Membership
Section 1: Definition
Any person who has been admitted to receive the Latihan Kejiwaan, who has their name and address duly recorded with the appropriate Group, Center, or Regional Membership Secretary and the National Membership Secretary and is verified by the Center, Regional, or National Helpers as an active member, shall be a member of this Corporation.
No person, on the basis of race, color, ethnicity, religion, national origin or ancestry, age, sex, sexual orientation, or marital status shall be discriminated against, excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination in any program or activity for which Subud USA is responsible.
Subud USA may, however set a minimum age requirement for applicants who wish to become members, no higher than eighteen years of age.
From bronte, January 5, 2008. Time 1:45
What a pity Subud Australia can't "pass a bylaw" like that.
Then there won't be letters from National Helpers to persons seeking their helper's card saying that they are "unsuitable because of their lifestyle". Well so be it. Bapak proposed, National Hellpersons Disposed.
Amen
From Philip Quackenbush, January 5, 2008. Time 9:10
Actually, Bronte, it was not the "helpers" that had anything to do with the resolution, although there was some muttering about including them in the process, it was the delegates. The resolution passed in Portland with only a Texas delegate, as I recall, dissenting. I wasn't there in Chicago, but I was a delegate in Portland. I find it a bit sad that it hasn't spread globally, but the suggestion of getting the ball rolling locally if any reforn is to be expected is a good one. Enough members from enough groups willing to change something eventually will reach a critical mass that can't be ignored, if there's a democratic process, which, unfortunately, still doesn't exist in some countries as a tradition.
Peace, Philip
From Stefan, January 5, 2008. Time 11:6
Hi David
Can't tell you how happy and hopeful I'm feeling, hearing about the Subud USA congress resolution:-
"No person, on the basis of race, color, ethnicity, religion, national origin or ancestry, age, sex, sexual orientation, or marital status shall be discriminated against, excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or otherwise be subjected to discrimination in any program or activity for which Subud USA is responsible."
So Subud CAN get contemporary!
I have some related questions that you (or someone) may be able to help me with ...
1> Am I right in assuming that Bapak's advice about lesbians and gays is still included in the latest "helpers handbook" and so is still being promoted to Subud groups around the world?
2> Has this practice changed within the USA following the non-discrimination resolutions of the 2000 and 2002 congresses?
3> Is there any record of how the case was presented that convinced the USA congress delegates to take this step?
4> This surely merits a big article in Subud voice. As an intermittent Subud news reader I may have missed it. Was all this reported at the time(s)? It challenges those who would make a "sacred cow" out of Bapak's words, so I wonder if it was played down or hushed up!
Stefan
From Sahlan Diver, January 5, 2008. Time 11:51
Stefan,
I have been following the various feedbacks relating to homosexuality. You mention the helpers' handbook. It seems to me that in respect of the handbook or any other officially sponsored literature there is a wider issue.
We shouldn't try to change history by pretending that Bapak's talks and pronouncements were other than they were. It is right that we have an accurate record of the talks, with translations that try to be as accurate as possible, as in the current SPI talks publishing project.
However, when it comes to handbooks, leaflets for applicants, Bapak quotes on official web sites, and so on, we should select sensitively. If, as most of us probably believe, the latihan should be accessible to all of mankind, then Bapak's wisdom in respect of the general practise of the latihan is what is most valuable. Anything quoted that is too closely tied to Bapak's own culture and religion is in danger of a) pushing people away, and b) giving the impression that we are in reality a new religion or cult with its own specific and restrictive mix of moral exhortations.
Sahlan
From bronte, January 5, 2008. Time 12:13
Oh - I did not think or mean that the Helpers had made the changes or limitation in USA. I just refered to how things happened here.
I was in touch once with a guy who was at the USA congress, at Skymont I think it was, and he had been involved with running discusion on this subject. I'd hoped to be more involved in this. But no. He's still on my mind occassionally. But years ago he wrote that he was HIV+, so God know if he is around, in Subud, or whatever, now.
I feel a need to be involved with Subud like never before in my life right now, while the Nat Congress is going on here in town, but feel just as much a barrier to it as ever, financial first, and emotional next. I have simply learnt not to trust most of the people in Subud or the way things are done. The intolerance of people all over the place has to be seen to be believed.
But the latihan bypasses all that, or I would long ago have really left it behind. In my opinion, no one can leave it behind. It is forever with anyone who ever was opened, till they die, and beyond. Just my belief!
From Philip Quackenbush, January 5, 2008. Time 14:5
Hi, Sahlan,
You wrote: It is right that we have an accurate record of the talks, with translations that try to be as accurate as possible, as in the current SPI talks publishing project.
I Agree with the sentiments (sediments?). But the SPI project is doomed to fail in terms of accuracy, because neither of the people most involved in the translations are native English speakers, a sina qua non for professional-quality translations. Consequently, there are literally thousands of errors that have been pointed out by a person who was a native English speaker with a knowledge of Javanese and Indonesian language and culture from thirty years of living in Indonesia and teaching there: Mansur Medeiros, whose corrections, quite specific, are on the Subudtalk archives in his Watch series, which was not completed because of his death intervening, but virtually every lecture (a more accurate term, IMO) that he examined has errors in it.
Peace, Philip
From Stefan, January 5, 2008. Time 17:32
Hi Sahlan,
Let's recap: Lilliana talked about questioning ideas and discarding practices that no longer serve Subud.
I announced my intention to get our organisation to update its official stance towards lesbians and gays. I tremble as I say it again!
I learned from David that in Portland in 2000, the Congress passed the following motion: "Congress adopts the following non-discrimination policy: Subud U.S.A. does not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation."
I asked if the reference to Bapak's advice on homosexuality has consequently been removed from the USA helpers handbook.
Sahlan responded: "We shouldn't try to change history by pretending that Bapak's talks and pronouncements were other than they were...
However, when it comes to handbooks, leaflets for applicants, Bapak quotes on official web sites, and so on, we should select sensitively."
I don't disagree Sahlan, but I want to go further than sensitive selection. The latihan's potential is to catalyse a continuing process of development. It could take the next generation to places we haven't yet dreamed of.
But if Subud is not to become a miniscule (shrinking) religion based on the words of one visionary we need the courage to move beyond our starting points. The Quaker founders, for example, held certain conventional Christian ideas (including about homosexuality) that are out of tune with their congregation today which embraces agnostics, Jews etc. There's now a Quaker website for airing gay and lesbian issues and promoting inclusiveness and understanding. Without rewriting their history, they've deliberately moved on, and I think we need to.
I recognise that for those who idealise Bapak, this view might feel as abrasive as an insult to one's mother or father! (or more so) The role of Bapak's advice today is probably the most emotionally charged and difficult subject for latihaners to agree on, or even to talk about freely. I'm using the term latihaners in recognition that there's a substantial body of people who value and practice the latihan but are either ambivalent about or feel seperate from "mainstream" Subud.
Moving forward (if it happens) will involve talking and listening to one another about the role of Bapak's words in tomorrow's Subud, which is why I'm so pleased to be having this discussion.
Stefan
From Sahlan Diver, January 5, 2008. Time 18:26
Stefan,
I don't disagree with you, either.
I suppose I see what I described as "sensitive selection" as being an essential first step, the willingness of people to understand that, just because their religious or spiritual viewpoint happens to fit in comfortably with Bapak's, that doesn't give them a license to quote Bapak as some kind of infallible religious prophet and law-giver. By doing so they are doing the spread of the latihan a great disservice, by unconciously creating barriers to people joining, and by marginalising a substantial proportion of existing members, perhaps causing many of them to eventually leave.
The nature of the latihan held out the promise for most of us at the time we joined of not being an "us" and "them" practise, it was something exciting that seemed to transcend religious and philosophical boundaries. Unfortunately we ourselves have built on top of that a Subud culture with many smug ideas about what is and what is not acceptable "Subud" behaviour. I note that you distinguish, as many now do, between the latihan and Subud, (with the implied emphasis on the former being the good thing, and the latter being something very questionable at best)
Sahlan
From bronte, January 5, 2008. Time 23:22
I believe that Subud has one special difference from all those other belief sytems we may refer to here in this discussion forum.
Who else tells their followers or disciples to "find out for yourself"?
Well, yes I know some do.
But with the practice of the latihan some things can be more clearly felt or known. And I mean, firstly, their relationship to the latihan, not to Bapak's words only, or to bigotted Helper guidance, such as the one who stresses that sexual deviants are going to Hell for all eternity.
If "The Guidelines" say we must not do something, and we do it, there is a likelihood that we will see, or feel, a related result. No person inflicts the result on us. We hurt, or we help ourselves. We find out by our own actions if Bapak's advice applies right now, right here.
To the degree that this opinion I express actually works, that much we are free of any advice of Bapak's, except the very advice he gave that we should find out for ourselves the truth of his statements.
As to sex,there must be a few hundred thousand (opened) people who know by their own experience how much that influences their lives more after they were opened than before, if that is possible.
And some of us know we can still do the latihan despite not being perfect in that area. Because the latihan is it's own monitor of our needs, and our progress, not helpers or anyone else.
How many times have I thought, in latihan, of my own imperfections, only to find myself laughing at it all.
And I believe that is because fear of failure, fear of being wrong, or of being "not approved", does inhibit latihan, and does inhibit living, growing, and loving.
I make my case poorly, but this is how I see Subud as being for "All of Mankind"
Moralists - get lost!
From Merin Nielsen, January 6, 2008. Time 8:10
Hi, Bronte,
>> Who else tells their followers or disciples to "find out for yourself"?
When Bapak said this sort of thing, did he mean
(a) find out for yourself that what I've told you is true; or
(b) find out for yourself whether what I've told you is true or false?
(a) actually means, "You might never know it directly, but what I've told you is indeed true, regardless."
(b) actually means, "What I've told you might be true or false."
It appears to me that (a) is wholly dictatorial, albeit with a gratuitous, diplomatic turn of phrase thrown in. Yet whenever I've come across Bapak saying such things, I've taken him to mean (b), which seems more down-to-earth.
Regards,
Merin
From Philip Quackenbush, January 6, 2008. Time 9:52
Hi, Bronte,
Hi, Merin,
You wrote:
>> Who else tells their followers or disciples to "find out for yourself"?
The Buddha did, and it's been a basic principle of Buddhism ever since.
"When Bapak said this sort of thing, did he mean
(a) find out for yourself that what I've told you is true; or
(b) find out for yourself whether what I've told you is true or false?
(a) actually means, "You might never know it directly, but what I've told you is indeed true, regardless."
(b) actually means, "What I've told you might be true or false."
It appears to me that (a) is wholly dictatorial, albeit with a gratuitous, diplomatic turn of phrase thrown in. Yet whenever I've come across Bapak saying such things, I've taken him to mean (b), which seems more down-to-earth."
Would you say, then, that the phrase "accursed habit" is down-to-earth, diplomatic, and allows one to decide if it's true or not? Or bung Subuh's statement that the last chapter of the Koran is the Fatihah (he'd probably be laughed out of a mosque in embarrassment, if he were ever known to have attended one, with that declaration; even worse for the average Muslim in declaring that parts of the Koran are incorrect [which also relates to some of the things he said about "Jesus" that directly contradict what is found in the Bible: there's even a collection of his "Jesus" statements that SPI was distributing at the Spokane kongres that reveal, if nothing else his ignorance {or at least the "God" that he claimed to be a mouthpiece for}, of the New Testament])? I'd say that that the vast field of ignorance of bung Subuh as revealed in his published lectures could be a major factor in so many applicants running screaming towards the exits.
Peace, Philip
From bronte, January 6, 2008. Time 11:27
Dear me!
Am I commenting to people who DO the latihan, or who gave it up?
If the advice given by Bapak is so irrelevant, then those who find a need to oppose it so strongly should indeed be out of the door, and not writing here either.
I do not study Bapak's words any more, like I did when young. But I stil do the latihan, if only occassionally.
That is why I write, and read, here.
But if we must discard Bapak's words as untrue, then it follows, as night follows day, that we MUST give up latihan as well.
I shall not.
Thankyou.
From Yafiah, January 6, 2008. Time 12:57
Dear Philip,
Could you please let me know where I can find Pak Subuh's comments on Al-Fatihah. I am very interested to see what else he said around that theme and the context in which he was speaking. As a Sufi student and a long-standing Subud member there are many questions I am seeking to answer, especially the nature of the latihan and the role of Bapak's advice on the latihan.
Many thanks,
Yafiah
From Merin Nielsen, January 6, 2008. Time 14:33
Hi, Philip,
Sorry, but I don't understand your question about the phrase "accursed habit". What's the context? Likewise regarding whatever Pak Subuh said about the Koran. My posting concerned Pak Subuh's meaning when he advised Subud members to find things out for themselves.
Hi, Bronte,
I definitely discard some of Bapak's words as untrue, and I even 'oppose' some things he said. But I see no connection between this and whether or not I practise the latihan. (I have no plans to stop doing latihan, as I find it extremely beneficial.) What connection do you see?
Best wishes,
Merin
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