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Subud Vision - Discussion

David Week - Seven Questions about Subud Culture

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From Philip Quackenbush, December 2, 2009. Time 6:56

Hi, yawl,

It's been my contention for years (although I haven't been very assiduous in saying so) that what comes as an answer to any "test" is directly dependent on the precise nature of the wording (as heard and interpreted by those doing the "testing" [for example, in LA once, we men "tested" in front of MSS "How is a bridegroom on his wedding night?", and I heard {and "received"} How is a bride of Rangoon on her wedding night?", at which MSS made the comment, "If you act like that, she may run away"], and when you add to that the "natural" contamination of people's thoughts and emotions as driving factors, despite the supposed lack of them during "latihan" [and therefore, "testing", which is supposed by some to be a "deeper" "latihan" because MSS said so, despite saying on another occasion that there was no such thing as "deeper"], there are so many factors militating against a "correct" answer that's it's somewhat of a miracle that anyone ever gets anything resembling one through the standard "testing" procedure).

That's why I always prefer to do (solo) "body testing" whenever it's possible to use that tool, because the body seems to be incapable of lying, and it takes far less time (although it can take a while and some experimenting to find what sort works most efficiently for the individual, but that amount of time can be far less than that involved in one Subud-style "test", so it's far more efficient -- I can do several of them in a minute [for example, what I eat or drink that may be beneficial for me, and what may not], with nobody necessarily even noticing that I'm doing anything, and the results have always turned out favorable in the long and/or short term).

However, I agree with Andrew that "attitude" "testing" can be useful, since, according to the old cliché, which I happen to think, and feel from past experience, is "true", attitude is everything (including any possible delusions that may be reinforced from "attitude" testing itself!).

It seems that we're on the horns of a dilemma here, so whoever is driving a dilemma should stop honking them while we're sitting on them, I think.

Peace, Philip


From Andrew Hall, December 2, 2009. Time 23:43

Michael,

My experience is that when I have any resistance or reservation about the question then I don't feel testing works. It just doesn't feel right.

I think my post described the framing of questions that I prefer - testing my attitude and what it could be.

By coercion, I mean going along with something despite having reservations about it. If I am satisfied that the question is clean for me, then I have no reservations.

I do not use coercion as you suggest, willingness to test something.

Your argument that testing is destructive of the latihan is not something that I agree with. It makes me wonder what your attitude is to testing.

If I receive a non-sequitur, then the testing is not working would be my response, and perhaps I should try to reframe it, or not pursue it. People are free to do what they wish, and see what works.

The important thing to me is that we all have to decide for ourselves what works. It is an individual matter, and I am not searching for some set of rules that everyone can follow, just describing my own position, which itself could change.

My use of empower means something that encourages personal responsibility. How does prayer empower? For me, it is by asking for guidance or help with something that is bothering me, but does not ask for the decision to be made for me. That is why I used the words "Please help me make a decision about..." or "Please help me understand.."'

Is it a form of magic? For you it may be. I don't think so. I am not trying to influence anything. I am not trying to cheat the natural laws of Nature.

Perhaps I am asking for help because I am having trouble and want help. I may have a sick child or trouble in a relationship, and it is getting me down. I am trying to decide what I should do or how I should respond.

Your argument that God should automatically know what I need and give it to me is not something that I agree with. Or maybe his reply is stuck somewhere in the mail!!

Frankly, Michael, are you expressing your own thoughts about these matters - "Isn't the very act of testing or praying, testing the will of God, that is, probing what is meant for you rather than just accepting." Minus the 'God' reference of course.

About testing my attitude, I have found it valuable, but that is only my experience. Your experience may well be different. I would prefer to hear about your experience rather than your argument against my experience.

Finally, your position that helper work with members does not need to involve testing sound very refreshing to me.

Andrew


From Philip Quackenbush, December 11, 2009. Time 22:15

Hi, Michael and Andrew (and, by extension, David),

AH: "I am really comfortable with testing are "What is my attitude..." and "What could my attitude be..""
MI: I used to take that position. Do you actually have any control over your attitude apart from the fact that you think you do? Isn't your attitude the result of of an endless list like: circumstances, character, genetic tendencies, emotions, beliefs, culture - even your belief that you can change your attitude? So what is gained by testing about it?
In case you think I think all helper work with individuals depends upon testing, I would disagree. I think that working with someone who is having difficulties could be aided by interspersed short latihans without specific questions - in other words, without 'testing'.

PQ: Upon reading this a second time, I have an entirely different response than I did on Dec. 2. So, attitudes change. The question remains whether they change according to one's "individual" will, "God's" will, or just because that's the way the universe works (sometimes expressed as the interdependence of all phenomena), Whether we have control over our attitudes or not, they do change. And, while I've been rather anti-"testing" (in the Subud manner, though I often consult my body and its "subconscious" store of experience and data in general through "body" testing that takes a fraction of a second rather than minutes or hours), my last "attitude" "testing" was valuable to me because it resolved my feelings somewhat towards death (mine and others').

So, I think that the important question about "testing" (yeah, man, let's "test" about this, and get out of our "mind." Cool!) is whether it's useful or not to the individual asking. If it isn't, then why bother? Or, if you do bother, why assume that the "answer" is "true"? Test the "testing" by following the "answer(s)", and discard what turns out to not be useful. But then, that's what the "mind" does, anyway, so why bother in the first place?

It seems to me that "testing" then becomes useful only if there's an element of confusion in thinking something through. But it often becomes a crutch for those who either don't know how to think things through, or don't want to. And even "testing" may not resolve the confusion, but it may be worth a try. Am I of two minds on this? Maybe more like three or four. Leaving it to the "believers" may be the only solution, but that doesn't mean that attempts could not be made to get the "helpers" out of the committee's business.

And the fiction that everyone is getting the same answer in a "proper" test for a group (the local Subud group, the country, the world, the galaxy, whatever) is just that, a fiction, because there was and always has been the underlying caveat that it can't be a "correct" answer if it doesn't agree with the "testing" of (pick one or as many as you wish), Baypack, See Tea Whoever, SIH, the "chief helper", the majority answer, etc, etc.

If one understands the "latihan" to be a form of spontaneous (form and spontaneous are incongruent, right? but how else to express it?) movement meditation in which data may be dredged up from the unconscious content of the mind/brain complex (the neurology of the process is explained without the authors' ever having heard of the "latihan" or mentioned it, in a new book called Buddha's Brain), then the suggestion of simply doing more "latihan" without specific questions makes sense, simply keeping the "problem" in mind (as if it were possible to do otherwise until it disappears, along with other thoughts, during the process of the "latihan").

Peace, Philip


From Philip Quackenbush, February 7, 2012. Time 8:58

Upon rereading (most of this) for a third time, I found some confusion as to which posts were earlier, since the second page seems to be actually the first, or whatever. However, I would amend my comment of Dec. 11, 2009, by pointing out that one way of getting "answers" from one's subconcious, "God", or intuition (perhaps an equivalency is present here), is to ask a question before going to sleep and get the answer either in a dream or on waking. Whatever works, I say (and that seems to be the basis of Chinese science, too. They don't ask why acupuncture works, for example, to the best of my knowledge, they just use it because it works (QED? KQED in SF). Also, in case I didn't mention it before, the founder of the cult once pointed out that testing was for people who didn't receive well. The obvious corollary to that would be, if you're getting your answers from "receiving" in whatever manner (Ouija board, dowsing, "revelation" [mine usually happen on the ivory throne before I'm wide awake], body testing, etc.), then there's no need to spend time going through a ritual that's then redundant (it's bad enough if it's dundant) for possibly hours. The last "test" I was sucked into on a lo-cal basis was about the "right" length of "latihan", because one "helper" assumed new members would be disturbed by my leaving the hall early (sometimes after only seconds of "latihan". My "testing" "told" me that extending my "latihan" past its current time (less than a minute or two at that time) would actually be detrimental to me. BTW, I haven't heard anything further about any new member being disturbed by my leaving early, which I did tonight after more like 20 minutes, including quiet time afterward. If, as the founder of the cult once said in SF, the "purpose" of the "latihan" is to give you total freedom from everything but "God" (which is a non-starter in my book, since "God" is, virtually by definition, everything, since every thing has to be made from Her omnipresent substance), then all efforts to control the "latihan", such as its length, should be discouraged (and I use the word should emphatically, despite it being politically incorrect in some circles [and obloids]).


From Sahlan Diver, February 7, 2012. Time 9:32

Philip,

"Upon rereading (most of this) for a third time, I found some confusion as to which posts were earlier, since the second page seems to be actually the first, or whatever"

Yes, there are some technical problems with the feedback. Being a volunteer site there is not always the time to fix these things. We have been trying to get a new webmaster with the technical knowledge and the time to revamp some of the facilities but so far have been unsuccessful in finding anyone,

Regards

Sahlan Diver


From Philip Quackenbush, February 7, 2012. Time 18:13

Hi, Sahlan,

My son, who's not in the cult, might be a possibility, but he's in to gaming, mainly, working for the largest online game company in the world at present, and has experience in repair and sales, but may not have the expertise or interest in web design that you need. Just a possibility, andt maybe a remote one. When he was out of work, I referred him to a company here, and he got a job. I dunno how much time or interest he'd have in volunteering (he's only 30), but I can ask, if you want. Enjoy.

Peace, Philip


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