RECENT DISCUSSION POSTS

The most recent postings are reprinted below, with links to the pages they come from.

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Philip Quackenbush, July 7, 2010. Time 7:6

Well, one change that was made around the time of my opening ('63) was that people were no longer just "opened" willy-nilly when the founder of the cult was around, which was clearly the case during the Coombe Springs era, when all and sundry that came around were "opened" without waiting. When the three-month wait was instituted, I'm not sure. Another fun change was when the founder declared that "latihan" halls should be well lit. When the "helpers" tried to light up the halls in San Francisco, the light switches went on and off constantly for at least half the "latihan". Unlike the time I did a committee/helper "latihan" that a helper tried to strangle a committee member after "latihan", nobody came to blows over it, but I continue to come across dimly-lit halls all over. Must be people tempting fate trying to prove that nobody ever bumps into anyone during "latihan". The imfamous "blue book" for "helpers" has gone through at least three or four editions, including the removal of Brodjo's advice from the first one in an introduction that the "rules" were only "suggestions". Some of the changes in it may have been to clean up instances of clear contradictions between statements from one set of "advices" and another. Whether it still exists or not, I don't know, but I think that many "helpers" now regard it as follies from the past. One instance of the evidence of the founders growing megalomania was when the "Pewarta" was declared off-limits for anyone to be published in it except him. A change that most people were not made aware of was when the founder fired Usman from heading the Bank for gross mismanagement and exercising his "God-given" Indonesian prerogative of dipping into the proceeds, which apparently was also reserved for the founder and the Family. Certainly, the institution of appointing "at least 50%"new "helpers" (which was when I became one), was a big change from the previous "Old Guard club" that had become fossilized.
Of course, the founder's vacillation on what constituted a Subud "enterprise" and the meaning of Susila Budhi Dharma could be considered changes, although the latter could be attributed to the words being ripped off from Sanscrit and misspelled as well as probably misunderstood in the first place, since they have clear, discrete meanings in Sanscrit, I'm sure, not whatever the founder chose to attribute to them on whim (or "receiving").

Peace, Philip

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Michael Irwin, July 6, 2010. Time 20:6

Hi Alison,

Thanks for your comment.

My latihan has changed since I wrote this article but the 'watcher' is still very much there. After writing this article, which was written at a particularly complicated time for my latihan, things resolved themselves to a much greater simplicity making me wonder if I should have written it at all.

Michael

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Andrew Hall, June 29, 2010. Time 17:47

I would like to reply to Jacob's feedback that I think asserts that making changes to the organization of Subud would be disloyal to Bapak and contrary to his wishes.

From my perspective, I think Bapak was constantly making changes to the Subud organization during his lifetime. It seems to me that Subud members were used to being surprised with new requests and changes in direction. If something was not working, I think Bapak had no compuction about trying something different.

I was not present when this was happening (I was opened in 1993) and I would appreciate if others would comment on this. If at least somewhat true, does it challenge Jacob's assumption (and the traditional Subud view) that Bapak gave us the latihan and the organization and we dare not change either?

While at the recent World Congress, I gave several Subudvision workshops and was aware that the one subject that seemed to resonate the most with experienced and dedicated Subud members was the limits of testing. Many were willing to acknowledge that they had witnessed testing by helpers for committee positions that they felt did not end up making the right choice. That is also my experience.

I would prefer that when it comes to choosing Committee positions that Subud members be empowered to test for themselves, make their own choice and then particpate in a democratic vote.

I do not think this view makes me disloyal to Bapak. I think it shows flexibility in being willing to try something new and being willing to stand on my own two feet. Did Bapak not say something similar to this?

There are indeed other issues where Jacob might well see me as not being loyal to Bapak, but I do not think that this is one of them.

Andrew Hall,
Ottawa, Canada

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Philip Quackenbush, June 27, 2010. Time 21:19

While I agree with Marcus' article, no procedure for implementing his suggestions is offered. That's why I recently suggested that a compilation of all websites referring to Subud be made available (to simplify a Google search for the enquirer that might otherwise involve thousands of entries). That way, potential members or "latihan" exercitants outside the org. can decide for themselves from freely available materials on the Net whether what the "latihan" offers is relevant to their lives. For many that already have it in some other format (such as Osho's cult), joining the Subud cult may not be necessary or relevant to them. It also would be a step towards real democracy, where people can think for themselves, something often not seen or encouraged in the Subud cult, and sorely needed at the present time to combat the hypnotic effects of current environmental factors, such as TV and corporate "news".

Peace, Philip

Click here to go to page for the following item:

Comment on Michael's Article Desribing his Latihan. From Alison, June 27, 2010. Time 16:54

Michael -

Thank you so much for your article. I have long wanted to come across someone who experienced the Watcher within. I seldom, if ever, hear this referred to, though I suspect Bapak alludes to it in some of his talks. It's fascinating and encouraging to read in detail of someone else's Latihan experiences, particularly from someone of the opposite sex. You have expressed your 8 pages with clarity and articulation.
Again, thank you.

Click here to go to page for the following item:

Refreshing Reading. From Maria Cameron, June 25, 2010. Time 15:28

Thank you Marcus for submitting the article 'Watch Your Language' to the journal. Refreshing reading and very much to the point. I would like to hope that your article could generate some debate on how we share ouir understanding of the latihan to non Christians, atheists, agnostics etc. My 6 year old grand-daughter asked her Mum if she believed in God and got a very quick reply in the negative. She didn't ask me (thankfully), but it got me thinking how would I answer that. Perhaps if she was older I might be inclined to ask 'What do you mean by God?' - because I doubt we would be talking the same language. But the creed, the dogma is so ingrained we are oblivious to its impact on others not involved in religion. We need to stress the spiritual, however that is understood, and as you say, leave the Abrahmic language out of it. How do we get there?
Thanks again, much appreciated.

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Michael Irwin, June 11, 2010. Time 0:17

Jacob wrote:
"I mean, he received the latihan and in his greater understanding gave an organisation to be the vehicle for this latihan."

"In his greater understanding" is where the problem lies. He was a man. He experimented a lot with the organizational structure. For me, how an organization works has nothing to do with how the latihan works. The spiritual world is different from the temporal (practical) world. I don't believe that everything that Bapak said was received. He wanted us to stand on our own feet. He wanted us to deal with the ordinary world as a practical matter. Just looking at how dysfunctional the organization has become is reason enough to question its structure and operation. Lastly, the demographics of the organization's members shows a shrinking organization that appears to be terminal.

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Philip Quackenbush, June 10, 2010. Time 0:52

The local group here was doing "latihan" in a Quaker hall a while back, and I got a look at the Quaker organizations(plura) historical chart (not a pretty picture, but quite enlightening of the path a "spiritual" organization can go down, and seemed and the time and still seems a likely path for Subud). The founder of Subud supposedly also mentioned that they no longer have the "latihan", that they lost it early on when their founder died, and in my opinion, after further reading and encounters, I think their thinking is still rooted in the 18th century, at the latest (not that there's anything particularly "bad" about that, but it's a bit like the majority of physicists who still think in Newtonian terms, even though they know that the universe doesn't work that way, and what we perceive is an illusion; they were at least partially responsible for the ideas that formed the United States; too bad that the Constitution has become, in the words of Dubya, "just a piece of paper.").

Peace, Philip

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Philip Quackenbush, June 10, 2010. Time 0:8

I might be dead by now, too, if I hadn't joined the cult, because my life was going along a track that had me thinking about suicide occasionally. I have subsequently found out that there are points in everyone's life called "exit points" where it's possible to leave the planet (or life as we know it here, anyway), and I've been through two or three since, at least, and going past them could be considered entering into a new life, since the circumstances may change so radically. One was when my marriage broke up and I got even more depressed than I was towards the end of it, when I could have "ended it all" by my own hand if I had made that choice (without, BTW, any "punishment" from "God" that I remember the founder of the cult referring to in one of his lectures where he seemed to be talking to one person in the audience who ended up killing herself at a young age; what happens as we go through various lives is all a result of our choices, so there's no putting any of it on others, including "God"), but I ended up happier single. Now I'm just hanging out waiting to see what happens next as we make our way down (or up, depending on one's personal psychology) to the "shift of the ages" scheduled astronomically to happen at 11:11 AM UT, Dec. 21st, 2012 and taking note of what's happening on the way there, enjoying the ride.

Peace, Philip

Click here to go to page for the following item:

Enterprises - the Quaker model.. From roselight, June 9, 2010. Time 20:27

Re Enterprises
Quakers were the model for this idea - I was told Bapak said the Quakers once did quake i.e did the latihan so he clearly knew about them. Has anyone found this quote ? So perhaps he knew this about them - after all Uk groups use Quaker halls a lot, and Bapak may have been in one on a visit. Some early members were Quakers.
In Quakerism the idea of enterprises for independence and charity support worked in an outstanding way. They started nearly all the UK banks - Lloyds, Barclays etc and became very prosperous. Did Bapak seek to emulate them ? It failed perhaps because it was an imported model, a copy. Subud had its own way to forge in a new way simply not suited to business or banks. It develops talents which cannot be exploited for money.

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Walter Segall, June 9, 2010. Time 15:9

I waited four months to be opened because I was just a bit concerned about what the Latihan would do to me. A friend of the lady who first told me about Subud went from being a clerk on Wall Street to becoming a beatnik, and I had fears that I would not become an advertising executive and also beome a beatnik. When I was opened I apppeared to have a job lined up in the copy department of an ad agency on Madison Ave., but the Latihan made me realize that I was to stay at the Post Office where I had been working at the time.

I can't really complain about this since I retired at fifty-three which was something I received would happen shortly after I was opened.

I would probably be dead by now if I had gone into advertising.

W.

Click here to go to page for the following item:

From Merin Nielsen, June 9, 2010. Time 14:20

While respecting that a person might well attribute great understanding, great experience and great wisdom to another person, I wonder precisely what would lead somebody to attribute such qualities to the founder of Subud.

Click here to go to page for the following item: