RECENT DISCUSSION POSTSThe most recent postings are reprinted below, with links to the pages they come from. Click here to go to page for the following item: Any Logic in Subud?. From Philip Quackenbush, March 8, 2010. Time 4:44Hi, Michael, You've been in this racket even longer than I have, but one of the benefits of the "latihan" that could have been mentioned that has become clear to scientists, if it's not considered unique to Subud, is its effect as what Benson of Harvard describes as the "relaxation response" in leading to greater health and longevity. The reason for that, as I see it, is just the release of tensions that you mention below the leads to a more normal flow of what the Chinese call "chi." MR: As I see it, the liberating effect of releasing tensions in the latihan leads us to a way of submission and surrender. We attune ourselves to spiritual forces In my years of bopping away at the "latihan", I've come to understand ("received", if you prefer) that there is no separation of "spiritual" and "material" except as concepts, that it's all just energy. So, there is no separation between the "divine" and "secular" either, as "part" of All That Is, we do the will of the Whole whether we want to or not, the "looseness in the gears" provided by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle writ large in the macro world the source of whatever "free will" we have as individuals, but paradoxically as individuals simply being tools of All That Is for gaining experiences for It and ourselves through our daily lives, So, whether or not we "surrender" to the greater flow of chi within us that gets balanced by the process of the "latihan" or the "latihan" (represented by the autonomic or "lower" nervous system being allowed to do its thing instead of being inhibited by signals from other parts of the brain) "forces" us to submit, it's all just a process that we can either accept or fight. The so-called "grace" in the "latihan" is the opportunity to allow that to happen, letting go of the demands of the precious, actually non-existent, except as a bundle of thoughts and desires, ego for long enough to effect transformations in the brain and thus our lives. I recently read a book by a neurologist who's a Zen practitioner about the recent findings of neuroscience as they apply to Zen, and, since Zen involves a "letting go" as well as concentrative meditation, much of it, IMO, applies to the "latihan" as well. He notes that the desired "kensho" or "satori" insights only happen during a period of "letting go", or deep relaxation. Another book I'm reading online by a physicist who's an Advaita Vedanta student as well, A Course in Consciousness, by Stanley Sobbotka, sets out in clear, logical order in a series of questions and answers at the beginning of the book, what vedanta students see as the nature of reality, and, IMO, there's much to be learned about the nature of the "latihan" from it. As long as the organization and its "explainers" keep to the arcane "explanations" of the "latihan" by the founder of the organization, I doubt that they will provide much significance to anyone applying to "receive" the "latihan" unless the "explainers" "stand on their own feet" as the founder encouraged us to do, and speak from their own insights and experience, some of mine being cited above. If the "explanations" are the product of "fuzzy thinking", as they often are, often presented by people who have just come out of "latihan" and are quite "spaced out", how can anyone expect them to be acceptable or useful to anyone who's seen the greater logic in something like vedanta? Peace, Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: And I thought dissociation was healthy..... From gordon j, March 8, 2010. Time 0:14I found this article very helpful. I would decribe myself as a Subud enquirer ie I am not a member though perhaps in the process of deciding if the Latihan is a gift I should receive. I realised that I often disasociate with feeling angry with family by doing as the author's father did , retire to my room and sit in silence. Something clicked as I read and realised how unhealthy to suppress the anger as if to fear it. The challenge is to express it contructively and perhaps then retire. An interesting question is also posed, "The question of whether we are creating the experience of God or alternatively, registering the effect of God's presence in us, is not one that can be answered as yet." Click here to go to page for the following item: Agreement. From Stefan, February 8, 2010. Time 17:36Another great article Michael. My strong appreciation. Click here to go to page for the following item: From Philip Quackenbush, January 25, 2010. Time 10:8Hi, Sahlan, Just a footnote to your article: I've been watching DVD's of 'Allo, 'Allo, and I'm not sure if that was the origin of "I have a cunning plan" or Blackadder. Only the ends that result from the means seem to be different. We can make all the plans that we want to, in Subud and "out of it" (a telling phrase that perfectly describes what most members [myself included] experience during "latihan"), but the way the world works, as its complexity is very well illustrated in the Mandelbrot set graphic, is that other people have plans, too, and so, what is intended often gets sidetracked (as Gurdjieff fans [and detractors] are probably aware of in his noting of the half steps within the octave illustration). So, even in situation comedy, a lesson is to be seen, but maybe we have to be shown the same thing ("you stupid woman") over and over (or stop laughing long enough) before we "get it". Peace, Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: From Philip Quackenbush, January 25, 2010. Time 9:50Hi, Rochanah, Yeah, agreed. The only time I say anything about such subjects (and objects) these daze is when the opportunity arises (or sinks). I talked to a returnee from the NZ Kongres on Saturn day after "latihan" and it was all "small talk." Now that I know what I'm "here" for in this particular reality/illusion (to enjoy what life has to offer in this form [at last!]), life has become much less of a hassle, but I'm still trying to simplify it for greater freedom (and fun). A lot of stuff that I used to self-flagellate myself for (met a four, Rick Lee) as being "wrong" or "wasting time" has become a source of comfort and joy (even though crispness is past, and it's not kosher to sing that at this time of year). Enjoy. Peace (=love), Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: From rochanah, January 24, 2010. Time 16:17Hi Phillip: And I say: "why bother?" Life is so delightful without having all the subud stuff be a burden on one's "back". :-) Peace and love Rochanah Click here to go to page for the following item: From Philip Quackenbush, January 24, 2010. Time 15:58Hi, Michael, From what you say, there may be more members from Sri Lanka not in Sri Lanka than there are there. I personally have met 3 in the US, one a long-term member low cally, definitely one of the Old Guard (IMO the most conservative helper in our group, having told me very angrily once that "God" would punish me for what I've said about "Bapak". Oh, well...it takes all kinds. Enjoy. Peace, Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: From The Webmaster, January 24, 2010. Time 15:20The article that Michael Rogge refers to above has already been sent out to subscribers to our advance subscription scheme. It will be available in our general article index at the end of this week. Click here to go to page for the following item: From Michael Rogge, January 24, 2010. Time 13:21Dear Philip, Thanks for your comments. I feel much in the same corner as you are. From what I have seen of the Christchurch congress I get the idea that it is a copy of previous congresses: euphoria that wears off in a couple of months. No taking stock of the stagnant situation and its causes. It is new to me that 10.000 people were opened in Vietnam. Another Subud tale. I suppose that a dozen are left now. At one time when Icksan Ahmad was in Shri Lanka thousands of people were opened there too and again, only a few are left. The same for Johore. Shortly another article of mine will be published here: Towards a renewed Subud. Click here to go to page for the following item: More Prejudice. From Philip Quackenbush, January 24, 2010. Time 11:38Hi, David, If one examines these two quoted talks further, it becomes clear that not only do they promote prejudice against Hinduism and Buddhism, but also Daoism and animism and other types of what could be called non-separatist "religions", such as Advaita Vedanta and shamanism, both of which see the universe as undivided, as One (which is present in Judaism, for example, in the Shema (the Lord is One) i.e., you are not separate from God, you are God. I would even go so far as to submit that the major cause of strife in the world comes from the separatist mentality and religions, such as "ordinary" Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, that see "God" as separate from "his' creation, a philosophical impossibility when you get right down to it, as I think Spinoza probably did. If Subud wants to promote that sort of thing, fine, but I want no part of claiming that SUBmembers are superior to anyone else. In that respect, I see "Bapak's" daughter, Rochanawati, as possibly having been more "spiritually" "advanced" than "Bapak" evidenced himself to be, in that she kept saying "God, only God", which to me meant that there is nothing but "God." I conclude from that: there is no such thing as "getting closer to God (or various gods)" or "God" favoring one person or group over another, as most religions (including Hinduism and Buddhism in their most common forms, and the "religion that is not a religion", Subud) do, because we already are "God," and therefore there's nobody to "worship", something that is virtually anathema to SUBtheology, and an attitude towards which most members I've encountered show themselves to be highly prejudiced against but I've personally found to be highly liberating and a source of considerable experiential enjoyment. Peace, Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: More Doubts, but I don't live on a reservation. From Philip Quackenbush, January 24, 2010. Time 9:14Hi, Michael, I just read your new article, but ended up reading this one, as well, since I couldn't find a feedback niche for the other one. In the face of major change around the world, Subud as an organization seems to be doing what other organizations in the world, from governments on down are doing, i.e., WYA (watch your ass, i,e., do whatever necessary to maintain the status quo, no matter how neolithic its attitudes), instead of allowing necessary transformations which will take place anyway, with all the new energies coming into the world from the near-time crossing of the galactic equator by the solar system, of which the "latihan" was only a penumbral harbinger, IMO. It's time for humanity as a whole to grow up and take responsibility for its personal and group actions. In relation to Subud, that could be reflected in something that "Bapak" (which one? there must be millions of them in Indonesia) once said, in a clear moment among his error-filled trance pronouncements, that no "spiritual" (read: any) progress is possible until you take responsibility for (implied: everything in) your life. What I saw of the recent Kongres in Christchurch on KongresTV seemed to offer hope only in terms of the attitudes of some of the younger members (who may leave the org. just as fast as the usual 98% have done; my reasons for staying in it are similar to yours). The one major "benefit" that I personally got from the Kongres was some "testing" at a lo-cal "Keds (a shoe brand) gee wan day" during it where one of the questions we "tested" was a variant on the ol' mist stick phil loss of fee cliché question "Who am I?" The answer I got, which was no surprise to me, was that I'm IT, i.e, "God" (but so are you and everyone and everything else). This flies so much in the face of standard SUBtheology as taught by "Bapak," though, that I doubt it will ever be accepted by the org. as a whole (hole?), thus, it will continue to slide down into the hole it has dug for itself, in all probability, or, at best, remain in the current status of "stable" membership that it's had for probably the last 40 or 50 years (I heard once that there had been 10,000 people "opened" in Vietnam, which is probably the total current non-hidden for political reasons active wordwide membership) and is more or less frantically attempting to backstroke to maintain. At the moment, except for its charitable activities and the "latihan" itself, it seems to be mainly benefitting The Family. Since the "latihan", as we both know, is available under various guises, IMO, those who need it will eventually get it, whether the SUBorg. survives or not. Peace, Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: From Philip Quackenbush, January 12, 2010. Time 21:41Hi, Sachlan and Rochanah, We had a "kedjiwaan" day here after "latihan" on Sunday and I participated in the "testing" (the first time I've done that since last year's Menucha retreat in Oregon). One of the questions we tested was what significance the NZ World Congress had for the world. I got that its significance was minimal, that the Earth (Gaia) was intelligent enough to take care of itself without any input from the puffed-up, arrogant "fleas" on its skin. In terms of "God's" "guidance", or "following 'His' 'will' ", my "testing" on the question of who I was made that laughable, because I AM THAT (and so is everyone and everything else) I AM, so there's only ME to turn to for guidance (in leading this illusory life within this particular "dream" that isn't happening and never did, as A Course in Miracles explains at length [and also succinctly]), not an "other", such as (choose any or all) "God", "Jesus", Buddha, "Bapak", Mithra, Joe Blow, the latest DVD, or fill in the blank _______. Surprisingly enough, those "testing" with me on that question accepted what I "received" without resorting to the usual SUBdenials (at least overtly). The one hopeful sign for the organization that I've seen was the fact that on the slideshow of arriving members from Congress TV very few of the faces were recognizable to me, which means that most of the membership is now "new" so the so-called "Bapak's 'mission' of bringing the "latihan" to any and all who ask for it is more or less successful despite all the roadblocks the organization continues to put in the way of new people "receiving" it. Since the "latihan" is just a normal physiological function (of the autonomic nervous system, mainly) that has been culturally suppressed in most societies around the world, it's available to anyone who's willing to relax into it, anyway, so the main advantage of "receiving" it in the SUBorg is that it's nominally (but not actually) dogma free (for more insight on that, see the new book, Buddha's Brain). Another question we "tested" was about what was "interfering" with our "receiving" the "latihan", again somewhat laughable, because the question implied that the "latihan" was somehow superior to any other state. I pointed out after the "testing" that that assumption actually interfered with anyone leading a life of any balance between the use of the "heart and mind" (to use SUBterminology) and the supposed (or actual) "benefits" of the "latihan", which only the Balinese are known to be culturally capable of among known, examined cultures, even though they may have never heard of the term "latihan". Since the SUBhouse is so close and I know so many SUBmembers, it's still practical to "do latihan" with them without getting sucked into the usual nonsense, but I suspect it's rather impractical for many of those "opened" (I met a newly "opened" member Sunday who had a two or three hour commute to get there, as well as a couple of long-term members with the same problem who have formed a subSUBgroup there) and too easy for the weak-willed "follower" types to join in the cultish aspects of the organization. I suspect that the only palliative for it is to continue to speak up and confront the nonsense when it occurs if one is strong enough to face the inevitable backlash from those too immersed in the Bapakism and/or separation theology culture to want it disturbed. Peace, Philip Click here to go to page for the following item: |
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