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Lilliana Gibbs - But what IS Subud

End goal of the latihan? From Mike Higgins, February 14, 2008. Time 2:40

o.k., next round... I shall now attempt to draw our discussion back to the questions posed in Lilliana's article. -{ :?o)

From David W.:

"it (rasa) shades through inner physical sensation into awareness of the emotions and ultimately into rasa sejati, the absolute or true feeling which is itself mystical awareness of the fundamental vibration or energy within all life."

Some questions: Then, according to Bapak, this mystical awareness is the end goal of the latihan? If so, the obvious test of it would be: Are people attaining this state of awareness as a result of practicing the latihan? Or is it expected that "many will be called, few will be chosen" to reach this state, and practitioners may expect to become more aware and responsive human beings but not necessarily full fledged mystics? Is this happening? It sounds like it is to some and perhaps that is the most we can expect.

If someone is regularly practicing the latihan and seeing no indication that the aforementioned change is occurring, is it not irrational for them to continue with it? If they are continuing out of faith that something may happen in the future, because Bapak said that it is liable to happen if they have sufficient faith (Did he say that?, I thought he had), then can we say that the latihan of Subud has become this person's religion? If so, whose fault is that? Is it our's for promulgating this false belief of Bapak? (if we have done so), is it the person who had faith in Bapak's statement, or both? After all, some here have stated that Bapak is "an expert on the latihan," so we should heed his instruction on it. Or was that rather listen to his words and draw your own conclusions about their veracity? How many of those who come into Subud can do that? Many I've met have no meditation experience so can hardly tell dissociation from suffocation.

From Mike Higgins, February 14, 2008. Time 2:50

The partial quote I gave above, which was David W. quoting Paul Stange, may be confusing, so here again is the link to the entire article that David gave:

http://www.sumarah.net/logicrasa.html

From Stefan, February 14, 2008. Time 3:49

Hi Mike,

Enjoyed your latest feedback.

"mystical awareness is the end goal of the latihan?"

I think Bapak wanted latihaners to become "true human beings"; less buffetted by impulse, less driven by fear, greed etc, more resilient and self-reliant. He wanted mystically orientated people to get more practical.

"Are people attaining this state of awareness as a result of practicing the latihan? Or is it expected that "many will be called, few will be chosen" to reach this state, and practitioners may expect to become more aware and responsive human beings but not necessarily full fledged mystics? Is this happening? It sounds like it is to some and perhaps that is the most we can expect."

"The most we can expect" is now my aspiration. I don't trust myself yet to espouse the "crazy wisdom" of a f/t mystic, but the latihan does seem to support the intuitive/creative aspects of my life. I'm interested in grounded spirituality.

"If someone is regularly practicing the latihan and seeing no indication that the aforementioned change is occurring, is it not irrational for them to continue with it? If they are continuing out of faith that something may happen in the future, because Bapak said that it is liable to happen if they have sufficient faith (Did he say that?, I thought he had), then can we say that the latihan of Subud has become this person's religion?"

Agreed. It must be so hard to invest years into something and not see any result. Perhaps helpers who dominate others are trying to compensate, or prove to themeselves that they've gained some sort of spiritual gravitas.

<>Not boasting but of course I knew Bapak even before Coombe Springs, can recite Susila Buddhi Dharma in the original High Javanese and have done more testing than you've had hot dinners. Oh yes, and last night I dreamed about the Insane Camel. So don't question whether I've made progress! Your very question shows that you're still mired in your thinking<>

Best from Stefan

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